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So there is a quote that is mentioned in the chuch quite a bit. I heard it today over the pulpit from the bishop and remember hearing it through out my life as a member of the church. Boy that was very triggery today. Its the quote that says that the study of the doctrine will change behavior quicker than the study of behavior will change behavior by Boyd K Packer.
I was thinking about that and how I believed that very literally for quite some time. I guess for a while i wasnt quite sure what was doctrine and what wasn’t. Im not sure about that now but do realize alot of things i did believe arent doctrine.
This quote i took as doctrine in the past and tried to follow other things i learned in the chuch because of this quote. Ive since learned that understanding my beliefs and behavior and other peoples behaviors is what i need to do in order to change them. I think that understanding a behavior is exactly what needs to happen. Not to just blindly believe. Im not sure if im getting my point across but would love to hear what others think about that quote. Therapists study behavior all the time to help people. Thats why people go to therapy to learn what they need to do to change their thinking and/or behavior. So is he saying thats wrong? I hope not. What do you guys think?
As someone who has studied and taught human behavior my whole life, I can’t disagree more. To me, that statement is a symptom of the anti-intellectualism that began during Joseph Smith’s time. It continues with statements like “the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture”, or the BoM statement “when they are learned they think they are wise”. I believe that back in JS day, there was a lot of angst that most people couldn’t go to school. You had to teach yourself, like Ben Franklin did. So there was a lot of anti-professor thought going around. It wouldn’t surprise me if well educated people also treated the less educated classes poorly, which may have contributed to it.
Over and over again, I see perfectly good industry practices, secular research and knowledge from non-ecclesiastical or non-scriptural sources flatly rejected in the church.
I think studying anything has the potential to change behavior, and doctrine is no different. I also think studying behavior does not change behavior in many situations and with many people. However, I think studying behavior has the potential to change behavior more than studying doctrine, especially for people who already have studied doctrine in the past and actually would be solidified in their behavior by continuing to study the same doctrine. Studying doctrine one already believes perpetuates and strengthens current behavior – which is why ALL religions and successful organizations insist on members reviewing things they see as important (doctrine, rules, mission statements, training, policies and procedures, etc.).
Havefaith wrote:
I guess for a while i wasnt quite sure what was doctrine and what wasn’t. Im not sure about that now but do realize alot of things i did believe arent doctrine.Me, too! I do believe a few things are doctrine (love your neighbor, for example) but otherwise I don’t think much of it is. One of the reasons I like some of Pres. Nelson’s changes is that some things people thought were doctrine aren’t – and that becomes very obvious. Ordaining 11-year-olds is an example.
I’m not a therapist but I work in a therapeutic setting and I see the therapists work all the time. They definitely study behavior and definitely change behavior.
There is also something to be said for studying and understanding doctrine though. As in the aforementioned love your neighbor, if we did that we would also change behavior – at least ours if not that of others.
I kind of see this as another of those things that is presented as “or” when it can really be “and.”
So this is what ive been thinking. Maybe during sacrament meeting when the bisop said that it made me think of all the times i followed what i thought of as doctrine. Looking back on my life seeing over the years i see how it didnt fix my problems. As i have mentioned before i went on my missiion and changed. I went from being a shy person to a leader. When i came home and was married a few years later i found myself not able to be the person i came to be on my mission.
So i guess what i am saying is the things my missiion president said and taught changed me while on my mission but in my mariage it didnt work. I had deep rooted believes from my childhood that needed to be work through..
For example i thought my parents’ marriage disnt work out because my mom didnt marry a return missiionary. I really thought that. So i married a return missiinary. I couldnt figiure out why my marriage wasnt the marriage i was taught it would be after marrying a retern missionary Years later i realized i could do all the church things and it still wouldnt change mine or my husbands behavior.
Yea so being kind to your neighbor can make you a kind person. I think that can be true if the persons heart is in the right place. But just by marrying a return missionary doesnt nessasarily mean your marriage will work out and the behaviiors of each are good.
Havefaith wrote:
the study of the doctrine will change behavior quicker than the study of behavior will change behavior by Boyd K Packer.
I think that this quote is perfectly positioned for the church. 1) They want everyone to read the doctrine andindoctrinatethemselves. 2) They present the gospel and the doctrine as the panacea or cure-all. 3) They now have the ability to dismiss any other field of study because “the doctrine” trumps science or social studies. (Can you imagine how many times this quote and quotes like it have been used to suggest to gay youth that they can “study the doctrine” until they will no longer be gay?) I do believe that belief in the restoration, living the gospel standards, and inclusion and integration into one’s ward family CAN have extremely positive influences on some quality of life metrics for an individual. An overarching life purpose and meaning? Loving heavenly parents that are rooting for you? A community that supports and strengthens you? A focus on family that can tend towards two parent households and mutual support? These factor can be huge for building a stable and meaningful quality of life.
Ibremember reading the scriptues as a fanily lfor ong time hoping that would solve problems in my marriage. It didnt. I remember being told to have meals together and thought rhat would solve them. Boy neither of those solved a thing. And i can understand how reading the sciiptues cant turn some into not being gay. I still believe the acceptance idea of people who are not a part of the church for any reason is the christ like thing to do. Im not sure yet what God thinks should happen to gay people but i do feel strongly that he loves them and sees the good in them. He has to and wants to. No person is bad. How people treat others and our selves i think God cares about.
Just wanted to add that on.
It might be helpful to think of the church as an organization with a lifestyle program. There are many for whom the program “works wonderfully”. Those are the ones the tend to rise to the top and become leaders. From their perspective and life experiences everyone would benefit if only they would adopt this lifestyle (or adopt it more rigidly). There is confirmation and survivorship bias at play. Our goal at StayLDS is to facilitate continued connection to the church when things are not wonderful and your needs are not being met. For me that becomes an exercise in sustainability and boundaries. Put simply, If I feel that my costs are significantly more than my benefits over a long period of time I will likely become resentful and burnt out and potentially react in emotional ways rather than thoughtful, reasoned, and measured ways. I try to even out the costs and benefits by volunteering to do things that feel like comfortable contributions to me and set boundaries around less comfortable contributions. I will not “give till it hurts.” I also feel that I have some personality traits that help me to keep things in balance more successfully than others. Some people may benefit from this approach – others less so. Our only goal is to reach those that are struggling and really could use some pointers on getting their faith journey back in balance.
I think the immersion of the Spirit changes behavior. I hate to compare it to anything else and elevate it above other behaving changing stimuli, but I have seen people make sweeping changes to their lives on the strength of a spiritual experience I enjoyed with them. This was often accompanied with doctrine, but it wasn’t the doctrine — it was the Spirit that did it. The study of doctrine, with the Spirit absent, doesn’t change much.
Here is what has changed my behavior, in some cases after literally years of struggling with these issues IN THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF.
1. I read a book on exercise and started a daily habit.
2. A doctor’s visit fueled massive changes to my diet.
3. Evidence in my home relationships caused me to seek external help, which changed how I interact with people in my family about 15%.
4. Being invited to take a new and expanding role in my work improved my work habits and effectiveness as an employee.
5. I read several books on Narcissism and it changed my interaction with people who have those tendencies.
What didn’t change it.
1. Prayer
2. Church attendance
3. Scripture study
4. Talks and videos from church leaders.
I believe these churchy things above point you in a certain direction, but they are like theory. Theory is of no practical use without application. Application comes from practitioners who understand theory. Theory alone isn’t enough for most people.
So I’m thinking about scripture reading and what it has done and what it has not done for me. It reminds me of the scripture where Nephi tells us to liken the scriptures unto ourselves. Something like that any ways. I took that literally and tried to apply scriptures in my life. As a teenager i was very shy, at least thats what i thought. So i would pray to beable to talk with other people. I did really feel I changed until part way through my mission experience when i gained confidence in what i was doing and when given the opportunity to show my confidence.
So i learned to talk with people. The more i think about it the more i think it had alot to do with getting the opportunity.
Being in a different circamstance would not have given me that chance to grow.
So I guess what i am saying is being with and around people who believed in me, changed me. It wasnt a doctrine that I learned nessasarily
After coming home from my mission I got married after a few years and i could not be that same person. I believe it wasnt because i didnt follow doctrine. It wasnt me nessasarily it was i wasnt in the place for those same opportunities i had on my mission. If that makes sence.
I now try to have boundries around people. And can tell when i need those or not more.
I believe following the doctrine taught at church or read in the scriptures would have never changed that. It was studying elsewhere that helped me discover that being my true self involves boundries.
I just happened to have an easier oppertunity on my mission.
Thats what Im thinking now. Im still trying to figure out how the spiritual part had to do with all that.
“To a hammer, every problem is a nail” Imagine going to a bishop asking for help turning a screw. He responds with, “Looks like a nail to me.”
It is an imperfect analogy. I believe this “Study Doctrine to change behavior” quote sometimes gives church leadership an out or excuse to give advice based upon church doctrine without necessarily taking the time to really listen and understand the problem.
“Did you try prayer and fasting?”
Roy with you bringing up fasting there at the end reminded me a of some spiritual experience i have had in the past. I will have to think about that a bit more because these experiences were very powerful to me at the time. I really believed God interviened in an experience and i contributed it to fasting. Boy thats a hard one because im not sure i want to let that go.
So thats it i prayed to God to help me not be shy before and reading my scriptues didnt solve it and like i said the circomstance and the people i was with mad the difference. So how was God involved? Ddd he answer my prayers. It sure took a long to for me to figure this boundry thing out. Really like 20 years. Is that what God does? I do believe God haas involved in my life when i comes to things that are not even church related. I can find him in other things.
For example the boundry thing. I dont know i have ever heard that taught at church. In fact its quit opposite at times But i know its true. But can He help a person be baptized by me fasting. I surely thought that on my mission
Havefaith, I do not know how much God is involved in our life. I am even less certain that we mortals can do things to influence God’s involvement.
FWIW, I have had my own spiritual experiences that I hold close. You can reinterpret them without discarding them. I ultimately choose to interpret mine to mean that God loves me recklessly, openly, and fully; completely separate from my actions. My “worthiness for love” is an innate characteristic that cannot be separated from my core. God “first loved us”. Now in the face of His warming and nurturing love, I believe that we can learn to reflect that love … back to God and also upon our fellow men.
Therefore, my testimony does not involve any divine intervention in our mortal lives. I am completely agnostic on that point. God can love me without swooping in to save the day or even putting his finger on the scale of random events to tip it towards my good fortune.
P.S. I recognize that some people feel passionately about God being there for them in a more interventionist “God of miracles” sort of way. Our church tends to lean that direction and I understand that my testimony might be distressing for some of them. I am therefore very careful in how I express myself with church members.
Havefaith wrote:I really believed God interviened in an experience and i contributed it to fasting.
Boy thats a hard one because im not sure i want to let that go.
I have chosen to hold on to those precious experiences in my life and not throw them out because I see things differently now. They were what they were for me, and I still believe they were needed for me at that time. But I can’t keep wishing those experiences will replicate for me now. I have to move forward and look for good in my life that I can find now, even if it is from a different point of view.Faith is a powerful thing. When I had faith we could move mountains with enough faith in the will of God, it helped me, seeing those things from that point of view.
If I can no longer believe those things are literal, as I did before, OK…then I can see them as symbolic or allegorical…and still draw meaning to help me where I am now.
It is good to have faith and hope in something bigger than ourselves. But our faith can grow and change in life. And that is ok.
Roy wrote:
Therefore, my testimony does not involve any divine intervention in our mortal lives. I am completely agnostic on that point. God can love me without swooping in to save the day or even putting his finger on the scale of random events to tip it towards my good fortune.
That can work for many people. It is kind of how I see things too. But I realize not everyone else wants that or will benefit from that. Some may view that as “hopeless” and give up…and really want to believe something else. And that is OK. God won’t change. The universe won’t change.
But what do we feel we need so that we can change, and find hope in life for good things. Because as we hope for things and have faith that the universe has good things in store for us…I think we are more prone to find good things in our life. At least, that has been the case for me. Regardless of how I describe it to myself…I simply find more good things when I am looking for it…whatever lens I use to help me look for it and move forward acting out of love.
I believe the church doctrines help us do that. Sometimes. And other times, we find other doctrines. All goodness comes from God, wherever we find it.
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