- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Latterday Skeptic wrote:
I concede that
there is such a thing as addictive behavior related to pornography, if one defines addiction in the following ways: A person finds much of their thoughts and actions continually turned to the behavior, to the exclusion of other activities the person also enjoys or know is necessary (job, family responsibility, personal commitments to others, etc…)…There is a pattern of increasing “levels” or types of risks…The person is frequently unable to personally stop the behavior even when they desire to do so, desire to do something else, or even if they recognize that the behavior is maladaptive and harming them, or is illegal or risky to them. Questions I have: Although the church can help with the concept of accountability, arguably an important concept in breaking addictive behaviors, does the church’s role and ways of achieving this actually help or hinder the “healing” process?
Does the church perpetuate and/or encourage the guilt/shame cycle by…making any “normal” sexual behavior a subject of guilt and warning of ecclesiastical punishment, especially towards impressionable youth through frequent interviews, talks, “retreats”, etc… For the record, I’m not trying to say that there is no such thing as porn addiction at all I just think that if any such “disease” really is doing serious harm to some individuals then it must be relatively rare because that’s just not what I see happening at least 9 times out of 10 in real life. What’s really going on here is simply that the majority of members that continue to look at porn basically don’t really want to stop and are not addicted in a harmful way at all; it is more a case of thinking they can easily get away with it without anyone that would disapprove ever knowing about it which is the only real undesirable potential pitfall I see in most cases. So the behavior we see actually makes perfect sense based on the typical expected risk/reward trade-off.
It is interesting to see that we now have giant billboards here in Utah advertising effective “treatment” for porn addiction which is not the kind of thing that I would ever expect to see anywhere else that I know of. Not to say that there aren’t any non-Mormons that also get into trouble with their wives over porn because I have seen examples of this on national shows as well but it seems like we take it to a whole other level with the unrealistic expectation of complete abstinence with no excuses.
Basically, I see porn as mostly just an extension of completely natural physical desires that most men will try to satisfy one way or another so the fundamental cause can’t ever be “cured” completely simply by telling people this is an unacceptable way to express these basic desires. At the same time, it looks like the supposed pressing need for everyone to stop looking at porn once and for all has been artificially derived from learned feedback due to outdated Victorian/puritan style shame about it and attempts to accommodate some womens’ highly emotional opinions about it.
I’m not trying to say the Church should openly endorse porn and say there is nothing wrong with it just because lots of people are doing it; I just think they should calm down a little bit because they are not going to be able to stop it anyway and in many cases all the talk about how terrible it is mostly just makes people more upset about things that are mostly outside their control (other people’s behavior and choices). Making such a big deal about it will probably not prevent it most of the time anyway because many of the LDS men that are doing this already don’t really believe it’s that bad and don’t plan on ever getting caught anyway because they have already been doing it for so long without any problems. The general idea is that what people don’t know won’t hurt them.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:I just think they should calm down a little bit because they are not going to be able to stop it anyway and in many cases all the talk about how terrible it is mostly just makes people more upset about things that are mostly outside their control.
I dunno, DA. I guess I agree in some ways that the volume of warnings against it could be turned down some…but I’m not in agreement with you that it is out of control and a given that all males will view porn.
I’ve heard similar arguments the past few weeks about Brandon Davies’ situation and many folks think it is ridiculous to expect college age kids to abstain from sex or alcohol at their age, it is asking the impossible, and especially so for star athletes. But thousands of students go to BYU and commit to it and live it (and many don’t that we never hear of…but my point is…many do…in fact, I think the majority of students at BYU adhere to the honor code). There are also thousands of kids not going to BYU that live that honor code, in and out of the church (although not the majority outside of BYU).
But asking people to commit to a high standard can be a good thing, and for many people it is achievable and a benefit in their lives to abstain and develop the will-power to do so voluntarily. I do not think we need to go by the lowest common denominator.
Heber13 wrote:DevilsAdvocate wrote:I just think they should calm down a little bit because they are not going to be able to stop it anyway and in many cases all the talk about how terrible it is mostly just makes people more upset about things that are mostly outside their control.
I dunno, DA. I guess I agree in some ways that the volume of warnings against it could be turned down some…butI’m not in agreement with you that it is out of control and a given that all males will view porn…I’ve heard similar arguments the past few weeks about Brandon Davies’ situation and many folks think it is ridiculous to expect college age kids to abstain from sex or alcohol at their age, it is asking the impossible…But thousands of students go to BYU and commit to it and live it…in fact, I think the majority of students at BYU adhere to the honor code…But asking people to commit to a high standard can be a good thing, and for many people it is achievable and a benefit in their lives to abstain and develop the will-power to do so voluntarily. I never said that all men typically look at porn and automatically like it as much as I did. For example, I doubt that my TBM dad and brother have ever looked at it very much and maybe they’ve never really looked at it after they were married. But they probably already wouldn’t look at it anyway without really needing to hear so much hype about it in conference and priesthood lessons. Maybe my brain is just wired differently than theirs to the point that I like it more for whatever reason but I know for a fact that I’m not the only one and that it really is a lot more common than some people think for many active LDS men to continue to look at porn and try to hide it as long as possible.
The external conformity we typically see from active members is often very different from what is really going on behind the scenes especially for something this private. What I meant by this comment that the Church won’t be able to stop it was simply that they will never be able to achieve anywhere near complete abstinence for all active LDS men no matter how terrible they act like it is, but what this hard-line zero tolerance approach and exaggerated demonization will almost certainly do in many cases is cause more pain for everyone involved when some LDS women unexpectedly find out about their husband’s secret porn habits.
I think non-subtance addictions such p*rnography/sexual practises, gambling, shopping etc get less attention than they should. Gambling is a particularly nasty one. I have a friend who is more or less addicted to strip clubs, and spends vast amounts on the strippers therein. However, as I have said in another thread, what constitutes p*rn is a question in itself. Suffice to say, as a heterosexual male, I do have certain desires, and whether these are addictions or not is a question. I don’t exactly walk around with my tongue out, but I do often notice certain women. Does that make me a pervert, or are these completely normal desires? I don’t view anything that non-church members would tend to consider p*rn, but I do watch films which have certain scenes in them, which the church might see that way.
Remember what’s addictive for one person, won’t be addictive for another.
A good guide to whether you are severely addicted is whether you can give X/Y/Z up for a month without falling back, getting cravings etc.
I have also seen the church help free a member from heroin, which is a great thing, although he still struggles.
SamBee wrote:However, as I have said in another thread, what constitutes p*rn is a question in itself. Suffice to say, as a heterosexual male, I do have certain desires, and whether these are addictions or not is a question….A good guide to whether you are severely addicted is whether you can give X/Y/Z up for a month without falling back, getting cravings etc..
You see, that is exactly what the discussion is talking about. Just because a person does something – are they addicted? If person drinks a beer a day, are they addicted? And let’s say they can’t, for whatever reason, go a month without drinking a beer a day. Does that make them addicted too?
If a person looks a porn once a day – are they an addict? I don’t know about that – but according to the church they are – because it is deemed a “sin” which means there has to be absolutely abstaining from it. But addicted?
Do we base our definition of addiction on what the church considers sin?
Now be careful here with your answer folks. How many folks here go a month without sex? (can’t wait for the cynical responses to that question
🙂 ) And, why should you? Just to prove that you aren’t addicted to it? So using the church’s absolutes – you folks who are lucky enough to have sex once a day – I say you are addicted to it, and need to quit for a month to prove you aren’t. So if you are not addicted – than you can give up sex for a month – and will not have cravings for it.How about sugar? How many folks could give it up for a month, without having cravings? Why don’t we hear about this kind of “addiction” from GC. BECAUSE IT”S NOT A “SIN” in the Mormon world.
Maybe that person drinks a beer everyday BECAUSE THEY WANT too, just like they WANT TO HAVE sex with their wives/husbands once a day. That is not addiction . Or is it? Are we addicted to having sex with our spouses? And if so – is that okay, because it’s not a “sin?”
Nope — it has NOTHING to do with addiction – and everything to do with biochemistry. God makes us this way – for a reason. Mother nature program us this way. Yeah, the whole porn thing CAN ruin lives if it becomes all consuming — but i think one can look at porn without that happening. I think the church’s definition of addiction is really whacked.
To me, an addiction is something that someone can’t quit – or can only quit through intense, difficult, painful focus. I don’t care much for clinical definitions in cases like porn; I care much more about whether someone is justifying the continuation of something that is done privately (secretly) that would have SERIOUSLY negative ramifications if discovered. Call it addiction or just prioritization; I really don’t care. If someone “cleaves” to porn at the potential expense of their spouse, that person “values” porn more than they value their spouse. To me, that is an addiction – again, even if it might be just a matter of prioritization.
Fwiw, I have a bit of an addictive / obsessive personality – and I have struggled all my life with not letting myself get obsessed with various things (including blogging). I’m not addressing this from an intellectual, removed perspective; it’s personal to me in a very real way.
Can you look at porn without lusting after someone that isn’t your spouse? Sure, it doesn’t mean you are going to cheat on your spouse just because you look at porn. You don’t have to be addicted to something to make it wrong. I can lie just once in a while and not be addicted to it but that still doesn’t make it okay.
Good answer Ray…. but it doesn’t address my question. Are we are only concerned about addictions that are “sin?”
Question for everybody here. If this is true ….
Old-Timer wrote:To me, an addiction is something that someone can’t quit – or can only quit through intense, difficult, painful focus. ..
Than are you addicted to having sex with your spouse? And is that okay?
Yeah, it CONSUMES my life, and I could not quit. Is it an addiction? And do we care about addictions that have no negative consequences and that are not considered “sin” in the LDS church?
Yeah, I don’t care about addictions I like – and that really is a critical point. observant wrote:Can you look at porn without lusting after someone that isn’t your spouse?
No, I can’t.
But I can’t walk down the street and see and see an attractive gal – without checking her out. Lust after her – yeah, probably, sometimes. I don’t need porn for that to happen – it’s just mother nature doing her thing.
🙂 (Could this get me in trouble if jwald is lurking around today?)
Old-Timer wrote:To me, an addiction is something that someone can’t quit – or can only quit through intense, difficult, painful focus. I don’t care much for clinical definitions in cases like porn; I care much more about whether someone is justifying the continuation of something that is done privately (secretly) that would have SERIOUSLY negative ramifications if discovered…Call it addiction or just prioritization; I really don’t care.
If someone “cleaves” to porn at the potential expense of their spouse, that person “values” porn more than they value their spouse. To me, that is an addiction– again, even if it might be just a matter of prioritization. observant wrote:Can you look at porn without lusting after someone that isn’t your spouse?Sure, it doesn’t mean you are going to cheat on your spouse just because you look at porn. You don’t have to be addicted to something to make it wrong. I can lie just once in a while and not be addicted to it but that still doesn’t make it okay. Yes, because to me what it means for men to truly “lust after” women other than their wife is to seriously consider pursuing an inappropriate relationship with real women like their neigbour’s wife. Some people try to claim that porn is almost as bad as cheating but I don’t see how because porn is completely fake. It is easy to understand why cheating is wrong simply because I already have a pretty good idea about how angry I would be if I found out my wife had cheated. In the case of porn, I could care less if my wife did the same thing or something similar so that’s why I rationalize that she just doesn’t understand mostly because it isn’t in her DNA the same way and on top of that she has always been told how bad it is and that men shouldn’t ever do this. So it’s not that easy to just be honest about it because no matter how much anyone tries to convince me otherwise I just don’t believe it’s that big of a deal but to her this is completely unacceptable as if I should really be ashamed of myself.
As far as some LDS men sneaking around and lying about it I don’t believe that this is any indication of real “addiction” at all; it is basically a practical solution to avoid unnecessary suffering. I doubt that most LDS men hiding their porn habits really think it is more important than their wife; it looks more like a case of thinking they can have their cake and eat it too. Now that it is so quick and easy for men to access porn on the internet without anyone knowing they did it has become much harder for them to resist the temptation than it was in the past. Any costs and risks involved in terms of inconvenience, stress, embarrassment, etc. have been lowered so much by this development that the Church is never going to have much success in stopping it. Their model for success (strict abstinence mostly because some prophets said so) was adapted to a completely different environment that no longer exists and it shows with some of the disastrous results we are starting to see.
cwald wrote:SamBee wrote:However, as I have said in another thread, what constitutes p*rn is a question in itself. Suffice to say, as a heterosexual male, I do have certain desires, and whether these are addictions or not is a question….A good guide to whether you are severely addicted is whether you can give X/Y/Z up for a month without falling back, getting cravings etc..
You see, that is exactly what the discussion is talking about. Just because a person does something – are they addicted? If person drinks a beer a day, are they addicted? And let’s say they can’t, for whatever reason, go a month without drinking a beer a day. Does that make them addicted too?
If a person looks a p*rn once a day – are they an addict? I don’t know about that – but according to the church they are – because it is deemed a “sin” which means there has to be absolutely abstaining from it. But addicted?
How easy is it for them to give it up? How long can they spend away from it? How much money are they spending on this? Is it becoming obsessive?
These are all questions I’d ask.
In my teens I drank like the proverbial fish… but at one point I actually backed off, because I was getting cravings for it. I don’t need cravings for something that I don’t actually need. I drank for pleasure, not to become hooked on it, these are two different things.
cwald wrote:observant wrote:Can you look at porn without lusting after someone that isn’t your spouse?
No, I can’t.
But I can’t walk down the street and see and see an attractive gal – without checking her out. Lust after her – yeah, probably, sometimes. I don’t need porn for that to happen – it’s just mother nature doing her thing.
🙂 (Could this get me in trouble if jwald is lurking around today?)
I think it goes without saying if it wasn’t for Mother Nature, then you wouldn’t be with the Mrs either.
😆 I see this as completely normal and natural, but if someone is spending their whole time indoors, paying hundreds of dollars for “internet services” or in a girly establishment, then I’d say that’s getting to be an addiction.I was watching “Blades of Glory” I think, which is very funny, but probably not kosher for the Mormons! Anyway, one of the characters is going along to a sex addicts group, and they have the serenity prayer (like the AA) and everything. Very bad taste, but hilarious.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.