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bridget_night wrote:
Hi Doug, Thanks for your reply. Please explain a little more about why ‘everyone’ could be right? The bishops and leaders my husband tried to talk to about his struggle for a testimony always looked flabergasted. It was always that something must be wrong with him, because there is only one right answer.
My intuition tells me that there is an objective truth out there … that there is only one answer to every question. In this case, I don’t trust my intuition any longer, but I do know that even if objective truth does exist, I only have access to it through my own opaque, distorting lens … I “see through a glass darkly” as it were … and, so, any truth that I have access to is subjective. Even personal revelation, direct from the source, whatever that may mean, has to pass through my lens. Objective truth is a sometimes-useful abstraction, but more often than not it is nothing more than a stumbling block.
For a priesthood leader to look on with puzzlement when someone explains that they have sought enlightenment and come up empty, and for him to conclude, therefore, that there is something wrong with that person, or with the way she was holding her mouth when she did it, is the height of arrogance and the best symptom I can think of that illustrates that the church is far too literal and far to institutional.
Yesterday I stopped at a local Buddhist temple that I’ve been thinking about visiting for some time, just to check it out. A young Vietnamese man named Tommy showed us around and told us a little about himself. His story of faith and transformation was touching, and although I found myself not believing that any of the details were true in the technical/scientific/objective sense of that word, I have no doubt that they were all true in the only sense that really matters — that the story was meaningful for him and had a deeply positive affect on his life. Whether or not Moroni’s promise works for someone is not the litmus test for humility, closeness to divinity, righteousness, or of anything truly meaningful. It only shows whether this part of the thing we call Mormonism is going to work for that person. It works for some people, and for others is doesn’t. They’re both right. More power to them.
bridget_night wrote:Your human, like the rest of us. I still appreciate the care and concern you always show. Bridget
For what it’s worth, I don’t have the answers either. I was just thrilled to pieces to find that an apostle admitted not getting an answer to his persistent prayers about the BOM.
mercyngrace wrote:PS If anyone knows the talk I am referencing, could you, um, help a sista out?
You may be referring to Testimony as a Process, Elder Carlos Godoy – November 2008
Quote:As a young man in Porto Alegre, Brazil, learning about the Church from two sister missionaries, I remember looking for an answer to my prayers—something big and unquestionable. It never happened. That does not mean that I did not develop enough certainty to join the restored Church.
Alma teaches this process of nurturing a testimony: “But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe [and I think that was my case as an investigator], let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words” (Alma 32:27).
Since those days, for me as an investigator of the Church, and later as a missionary, and then as a father and a leader, all of these experiences together formed a set of experiences and feelings, most often small, that leave no doubt that the seed “is a good seed” (Alma 32:30).
Hope it helps. (Is it possible that there is more than one talk in which a GA admits to not having received the “answer”?)
:crazy: doug wrote:Whether or not Moroni’s promise works for someone is not the litmus test for humility, closeness to divinity, righteousness, or of anything truly meaningful. It only shows whether this part of the thing we call Mormonism is going to work for that person. It works for some people, and for others is doesn’t. They’re both right. More power to them.
Doug +1
That’s a good one but the article I read was referring to something that happened *I think* in the 70s or 80s. It was a GA that everyone would know and remember. I have been through my google history and deleted line after line checking each link and can’t find it – it must have been an excerpt on a message board or something because I’ve looked for two hours and can’t find it. I’m totally befuddled and even more frustrated. Ugh.
Great post Doug. cwald wrote:Great post Doug.
Thanks, cwald. And Roy. I’m fairly passionate about these notions, but afraid I don’t communicate them very well sometimes. Maybe it’s the audience.
🙂 The young missionaries and a HP came unexpected by our house two nights ago. We let them in and were friendly. They were just trying to make a connection I guess. The HP that came had sat next to my husband last Sunday in HP class and had never said hi or a word to him that day. They just mentioned we had such a lds looking home (we have a family tree of photos in our family room and a purpose of life drawing I had done by the front door entrance plus losts of pictures of Christ.) I just told them that there were many good teachings in the lds faith that we like. The major problem my husband and I see is, them allowing us to be buffet Mormons. The minute we would say that we only agree with some of the lds teachings, they will do this thing of “it’s either all true or all false’ talking which we do not believe in. We don’t want to go into all the reasons we don’t believe in this or that. We don’t want to shake their faith. I just don’t think they will understand Mormons like us.
Nobody can make you be anything other than you are, no matter where you worship. If someone ever starts to push really hard, look them in the eyes and say, in all sincerity:
Quote:We love the Gospel of Jesus Christ and would like to worship within the LDS Church. If we were investigators or non-member spouses, everyone would welcome us and be patient and loving. I guess we could have our names removed and attend as non-members, so we would be loved and accepted for attending, but we don’t want to do that. We would love to remain LDS, be active and help and serve everyone in the ward without being pressured to be who we aren’t.
Will you help us worship with you and serve everyone?Ending it in a question like that is instructive – and it also can be very entertaining right after you ask, especially if you stop talking altogether and wait however long it takes to get a response.
That is brilliant Ray. I love that. Thanks. Bridget that one is quite full and wobbly right now: Proposition 8 (P8), the 14 fundamentals (14F), and benevolent sexism (BS) are way too much for that shelf to handle so I’m a bit worried if ‘staying’ is really sustainable. This feels like a naive question, but what are the 14 fundamentals?
Ray, that is a great quote! I would love to see the people’s faces when that is used. There’s really no arguing with it. HSAB wrote:that one is quite full and wobbly right now: Proposition 8 (P8), the 14 fundamentals (14F), and benevolent sexism (BS) are way too much for that shelf to handle so I’m a bit worried if ‘staying’ is really sustainable.
This feels like a naive question, but
what are the 14 fundamentals?Only the worst of the worst when it comes to ANY type of organized religion. It’s too bad they have popped up again in ours. Last year we went through each fundamentals in a separate thread, so you can do a search for them.
Basically, it was a talk given by Apostle Benson in 84, I think, and then it resurfaced in the October 2010 GC by two GAs…most notably by Elder Costa
The premise is that the prophet will never lead you astray, and whatever the prophet says is right and correct and true and you need to obey.
Quote:First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.
Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.
Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.
Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency–the highest quorum in the Church.
Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency–the living prophet and the First Presidency–follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.
PS – see my signature line.
Ok, thanks. I always hear people defend that by saying, ‘but only when they are speaking for God and not for themselves.’ I’ve never really understood that defense, it seems to be a somewhat giant contradiction. The problem with the 14 Fs, is the concept completely falls apart when it is applied to ANY other dogma or institution, besides the one the individual belongs to or has faith in. Do not forget…many many “prophets” including Warren Jeffs, uses/used and asks his follows to believe and accept the exact same philosophy as espoused in the LDS 14 Fs….and we think he is crazy and dangerous.
Yet, if we talk about the 14 Fs within our faith and apply it to our leaders, for some reason it gets a free pass.
This is a real sore spot for me….as you probably have guessed by now.
For people to reference the original 14 Fundamentals conversation, and the actual talks we are discussing, here are some links: StayLDS.com forum topic talking about the recent General Conference talks based on it:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1961&hilit=14+fundamentals Original talk by Ezra Taft Benson:
http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet Fall 2010 General Conference talk by Elder Claudio Costa:
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/obedience-to-the-prophets?lang=eng Fall 2010 General Conference talk by Elder Kevin R. Duncan:
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/our-very-survival?lang=eng
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