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I didn’t want to hijack deep thinkers thread about talking to his dad so I thought I would start a separate thread about talking to local leaders. I have read the suggestion, a few times, that you shouldn’t talk to local leaders about your issues with the church. This is a challenge for me because in the past I put my full trust in the bishops I’ve had. I’ve shared my challenges with temptations and intimate details of my life. I have never discussed doubts, mostly because I was just trying to ignore them or accept that there wasn’t a satisfactory answer to many of my questions.
Recently, I have stopped paying tithing and skipping church here and there (though I would like to stick around). I try to give a heads up when I’m not planning on attending so arrangements can be made to fill in for my calling. But sometimes, as irresponsible as it may be, I wake up planning to go to church, and just don’t feel like it. Usually, I would go anyways, but that has changed over the last few months.
I imagine that I will be released because I haven’t been magnifying my calling. If it were a job I would give notice, but being a calling I fear it invites a conversation that I may not be ready to have. So one way out of it is to just stop showing up for work, eventually you’ll get fired. I am aware it is inconsiderate and maybe even a little cowardice, but I am not quite sure how to handle it right now.
Is it simply lack of motivation? Or are there faith or other issues that are preventing you from wanting to serve? Perhaps you could answer those questions and we could help you better. SilentDawning wrote:Is it simply lack of motivation? Or are there faith or other issues that are preventing you from wanting to serve? Perhaps you could answer those questions and we could help you better.
Those are exactly the questions I would expect the bishop to ask. It’s really a combination of both. Though the lack of motivation usually stems from the faith issues, but not always. Before, if I ever had a purely motivational issue, my faith would sustain me enough to do it anyway.
Now, I get a little anxious as we get closer to Sunday. I kind of just want to take a break, and go when I feel like it.
Give notice – and just say that things in your life are crazy right now and you just can’t continue in the calling(s). If pushed, reference Elder Wirthlin’s “Concern for the One” where he mentions people who leave the Church because they are “tired” – and say that you don’t want it to get to that point, so you need to step back and recharge for a while. When you quote an apostle’s talk in General Conference and say you are doing what you can to stay as involved as possible, it’s hard for local leaders to argue rationally. Some still will, but it makes them be the ones arguing with an apostle. (The irony is SO rich in those situations. Just saying. 
Just not showing up isn’t cool or mature, but giving notice is both – even if the leaders won’t like it.
Also, just to clarify, the general advice is that talking to local leaders about faith transition issues is dicey – that it can be great with understanding leaders, but it also can be horrible with not-so-understanding leaders. It usually is better to stay away from potentially disastrous situations – to share only when you feel strongly that the other person will be supportive, and knowing there still is some risk even in those situations. Over time, when you own confidence and internal peace is at the point where it’s not going to be rocked by people who just don’t understand and even will try to change you (like where I am), that will change – but, while you still are “in the struggle”, so to speak, a careful approach generally is best.
Once again, I’m in agreement with Ray. Really, it’s OK to talk to the bishop and give notice – a month is probably good if you can – and just leave it at “I’m very busy right now” or “there’s a lot going on in my life right now” or “I have some things I’m working through right now” or maybe even (if you’re comfortable with it) “I need something less demanding right now.” The church doesn’t have any “ownership” of you, they’re not paying you, you’re a volunteer. The most they can really do is try to guilt people into doing what they want – which some local leaders do very well. Like Ray says there are bishops and stake presidents out there who are very understanding and maybe have been there themselves to an extent. In my experience they are not the majority and while some are more understanding than others, some are very much fire and brimstone old schoolers whom you will wish you never encountered. So the advice there is to just be careful and to be sure you can trust the person you’re talking to – and even that’s dicey. You not only risk getting more “help” than you want, in some cases you risk some sanctions that you don’t want, and could very well end up “marked” as someone to watch out for as a dangerous apostate.
Old-Timer wrote:Also, just to clarify, the general advice is that talking to local leaders about faith transition issues is dicey – that it can be great with understanding leaders, but it also can be horrible with not-so-understanding leaders. It usually is better to stay away from potentially disastrous situations – to share only when you feel strongly that the other person will be supportive, and knowing there still is some risk even in those situations. Over time, when you own confidence and internal peace is at the point where it’s not going to be rocked by people who just don’t understand and even will try to change you (like where I am), that will change – but, while you still are “in the struggle”, so to speak, a careful approach generally is best.
To add my personal experience to that… at first I felt a strong
needto talk to a leader. I can’t really explain it, perhaps it was a carryover from the time where I felt like a person with some stewardship “over” me could steer me back to safe harbors. To borrow a bit from the talk to my dad thread: Deepthinker wrote:However, I feel as though I really need to discuss it with someone close to me. My own mental state requires it.
As odd as it sounds it felt like something that I absolutely had to do. Thankfully I didn’t suffer any lasting ills from the experience of talking to a local leader; Looking back I was either lucky or I did subconsciously show a bit of discretion in who I talked to.
Now I feel zero desire to confide in an ecclesiastical leader. It’s just not there anymore. I’m not entirely sure what happened, but now I feel like the middle man has been cut out of the loop of… whatever journey I’m on. In some ways leaders aren’t leaders to me anymore, I’ve become my own leader.
All that insanity said I don’t know whether confiding in some external person was necessary in getting over the hump I had to get over or if it was simply a matter of biding time and being patient until I gained experience from other sources. Good luck, but do be patient and do be careful.
Unknown wrote:I didn’t want to hijack deep thinkers thread about talking to his dad so I thought I would start a separate thread about talking to local leaders.
No worries, I’m finding there are some additional insights in this thread that apply to the discussion in my thread. I haven’t talked with anyone in person, other than telling my wife that I do have some issues about some things in the church’s history (I only discussed polygamy). Sorry, I don’t have much advice for you about talking to your Bishop, since I have very little experience in this sort of thing. I’m the Executive Secretary in our Ward and I can tell our Bishop is very much a TBM, so I doubt he would be understanding.
What I can say is that I completely understand your need to talk to him.
Old-Timer wrote:When you quote an apostle’s talk in General Conference and say you are doing what you can to stay as involved as possible, it’s hard for local leaders to argue rationally. Some still will, but it makes them be the ones arguing with an apostle.
This. Very Yes.
I actually had this experience recently when Bishop had some “concerns” about things I posted on Facebook. Rather than argue my side, I simply indicated several scriptures and messages from apostles indicating that my position was well within bounds. Bishop relented. I don’t feel like it is a victory though, I just feel less safe sharing my thoughts publicly (I’m rather outspoken in our ward). I have opinions I want to share with those who understand me – and those people would never question my dedication, no matter how unorthodox an opinion I evinced. Thankfully, there are a few heretics in my ward and stake who make it easier to share these kinds of opinions.
A big AMEN to what Ray and DJ posted. You do not want to be known as the ward “flake” – that reputation will be there perpetually to haunt you, whether you are seeking members’ help at some future time to find a job or what. It’s just never a good idea to burn those kinds of bridges. Give the notice and stick by it. If and when you are ready to serve again, just make sure it is a calling you can feel good about doing and do your best at it.
Finally as others have stated, be very selective who you tell your church concerns to and use the group here for that purpose – not to blow our horn, but people here are very civil and understanding. The TBM folks are clueless on what you have gone through and are conditioned to believe that you need a strong hand to bring you back. Not to knock them or anything – the church frequently conditions members to be that way and those who subscribe to that approach sincerely believe they are doing the right thing. That just spells more grief for you.
Thank you all for the sound advice and level headed perspective. Sometimes it’s hard to see things clearly when you’re in the thick of it, plus, I’ve never done this before. Another question, would you go straight to the bishop to give notice or to the president of the organization to which you are called?
Unknown wrote:Thank you all for the sound advice and level headed perspective. Sometimes it’s hard to see things clearly when you’re in the thick of it, plus, I’ve never done this before.
Another question, would you go straight to the bishop to give notice or to the president of the organization to which you are called?
I’ve done both, ultimately I’ve always ended up talking to someone in the bishopric anyway.
Honor the authority of the organization president – unless you are convinced that person is going to react badly. Chances are, it will be mentioned to the Bishop who will want to talk with you, anyway. Just an update. Talked to the Org’s pres. and Bishop today. The Bishop was cool, very understanding. He assured me that I was wanted there and could contribute as much or as little as I was willing and able and to speak up once I felt like I wanted do more. I am relieved and feel much better. Thanks again for the encouragement. Another question, tithing related. I haven’t paid tithing in about a month. I haven’t necessarily decided that I won’t pay tithing ever. I’m just uncertain about if and when because of my current faith transition, I may in the future. In fact, I am still setting the money aside for that purpose, just in case I decide to. And if I don’t, it’s there to contribute to a charity. I’ve never had a problem with paying tithing until recently. I still think the greatest blessing of tithing is that giving the money regularly helps you detach from it a bit. Right now my biggest concern about tithing is not being able to attend the temple because of it. I really do enjoy the temple experience.
My question: Will the bishop eventually call me in to ask about it? How would you handle such a conversation? He knows I’m an RM and I don’t think he suspects and testimony related problems.
We’ve talked a bit about not getting into the details of the faith crisis with the bishop and others. In the past I’ve wanted to ask about a few things. But whenever I sat down with a bishop with the intention of asking about some of the controversies, they seemed to melt away and felt a bit silly. Good? Bad? I don’t know. But I’m wondering if this is unique to me. Unknown wrote:Just an update. Talked to the Org’s pres. and Bishop today. The Bishop was cool, very understanding. He assured me that I was wanted there and could contribute as much or as little as I was willing and able and to speak up once I felt like I wanted do more. I am relieved and feel much better. Thanks again for the encouragement.
Another question, tithing related. I haven’t paid tithing in about a month. I haven’t necessarily decided that I won’t pay tithing ever. I’m just uncertain about if and when because of my current faith transition, I may in the future. In fact, I am still setting the money aside for that purpose, just in case I decide to. And if I don’t, it’s there to contribute to a charity. My question: will the bishop eventually call me in to ask about it? How would you handle such a conversation? He knows I’m an RM and I don’t think he suspects and testimony related problems.
Tithing doesn’t have to be paid weekly or monthly or really even annually, although annually is more of a prevailing thought since there is tithing settlement. I do know a very active (and well to do) member who pays annually, and I know of some who work for a local major corporation who pay in stock. There’s no special alert set up in the church computer program to alert them that someone who has been paying suddenly isn’t, and the bishop doesn’t routinely get a printout of who paid and who didn’t. So unless one of the tithing counters notices and brings it to the attention of the bishop, he’s likely not to know. Even so, that’s why they ask the question in tithing settlement and in TR interviews – you decide if you’re paying a full tithing, they don’t. Other than a TR interview or tithing settlement, or perhaps a calling that requires a TR, there’s no reason for the bishop to ask about tithing and no reason for you to bring it up.
I went through a time during my transition where I also did not pay tithing because I was working out in my mind what I believed and what I didn’t. There are some good tithing threads here, but for me I don’t believe in any blessings related to paying tithing but I do see it as financing the church in a fair way. (Yes, I’m a flat tax believer.) I also do not pay 10% on gross but am comfortable with that I do pay a full tithe.
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