- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Last year I went in to tithing settlement for the first time in a decade. I told the bishop I hadn’t been paying any tithing for a long time. He told me that he doesn’t even look at the tithing statements. He gives them to people face down and just asks them if they’ve paid a full tithe. I was surprised and impressed. This is a man who trusts people to do what’s right and be honest, and he lets them be accountable to God. Having said that, I wouldn’t expect all local leadership to be like that. Unknown wrote:My question: Will the bishop eventually call me in to ask about it? How would you handle such a conversation? He knows I’m an RM and I don’t think he suspects and testimony related problems.
The short answer is yes. I have had several respectful and non-confrontational conversations with my bishop on this exact topic. I just updated and bumped a thread about tithing settlement. I have written the LONG version of my answer there.
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4879&p=73296#p73296 Thanks Roy. I suppose I don’t really want people to know about my doubts, but the tithing question seems like a red flag. Either your not paying because of money problems, in which case you need more faith that tithing is your ticket out, or you have a testimony problem. Unknown wrote:Just an update. Talked to the Org’s pres. and Bishop today. The Bishop was cool, very understanding. He assured me that I was wanted there and could contribute as much or as little as I was willing and able and to speak up once I felt like I wanted do more. I am relieved and feel much better. Thanks again for the encouragement.
Another question, tithing related. I haven’t paid tithing in about a month. I haven’t necessarily decided that I won’t pay tithing ever. I’m just uncertain about if and when because of my current faith transition, I may in the future. In fact, I am still setting the money aside for that purpose, just in case I decide to. And if I don’t, it’s there to contribute to a charity. I’ve never had a problem with paying tithing until recently. I still think the greatest blessing of tithing is that giving the money regularly helps you detach from it a bit. Right now my biggest concern about tithing is not being able to attend the temple because of it. I really do enjoy the temple experience.
My question: Will the bishop eventually call me in to ask about it? How would you handle such a conversation? He knows I’m an RM and I don’t think he suspects and testimony related problems.
I’m so glad the meeting with your Bishop went well.
Unknown wrote:In the past I’ve wanted to ask about a few things. But whenever I sat down with a bishop with the intention of asking about some of the controversies, they seemed to melt away and felt a bit silly. Good? Bad? I don’t know. But I’m wondering if this is unique to me.
Let me blab about my brief interactions discussing my questions with church leaders. Ten years ago, on my mission, a lot of the elders I was serving with liked to discuss “deep doctrine.” I loved it, too. I read all the missionary books, and then I ordered Mormon Doctrine and Answers to Gospel Questions and read a lot of those. I heard a lot of cool theories and came up with some really cool theories. Here’s a few of them:
The 3 Wise Men are Nephi, Lehi, (Nephi and Lehi from 3rd Nephi, not 1st Nephi) and Samuel the Lamanite. There’s a whole book about the theory called, “From the East: A Book of Mormon Perspective on the Three Wise Men” by Jeffrey Holt.
The Earth is going through spiritual progression much like humans are. Both humans and the earth were created spiritually first and psychically second. Both (8 year old Mormon) humans were baptized by water. Church leaders have taught that Noah’s Flood was the Earth getting baptized. Mormons have been “baptized by fire” meaning they were given the gift of the Holy Ghost. At the Second Coming, the Earth will be baptized by fire a.k.a. get the Holy Ghost. One day the Earth “will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory,” which I take to mean the Earth will be Resurrected. Here’s where it gets really fun: the Earth is referred to as female in the scriptures, and Enoch even hears Mother Earth talking in the Book of Moses. So, I figured that in order to keep progressing like Mormons do, the Earth will need to get married. And females need to marry males, so what kind of giant space-male would be available for the Earth to marry? The sun, of course! And I thought, whoa, wait a minute… if the Earth is female, maybe Venus and Neptune and all the other planets in our solar systems are female, too, and maybe they’re also going through some sort of spiritual progression. Maybe all 9 planets will one day be the polygamous celestial wives of the Sun! And right now the planets are orbiting the Sun because that’s how planets date and flirt!
And I had a lot of questions, such as:
How did Cain survive the Flood?
Did Adam have a belly button?
Will there be minorities in the Celestial Kingdom? (I’m not asking, “will mortal minorities that eventually make it to the Celestial Kingdom?” I’m asking, “In the Celestial Kingdom, will people still have their dark skin?”) Please don’t laugh this question off, folks. This seriously was a question I pondered when I was into all this deep doctrine stuff. In the scriptures, there’s a pattern of dark-skinned people getting white skin when they repent. And in all the Church movies and pictures whenever the pre-mortal life or the Celestial Kingdom is depicted, everybody there is white. And in 3rd Nephi it specifically says that the Nephites were white, just like Jesus was white. I thought that maybe when people got resurrected, if they got celestial bodies, they got white skin. Although, there is Alma 40:23 which says that when you’re resurrected, “not even a hair of your head will be lost” and all will be restored to its proper frame, so I didn’t see how a black person would get a skin that he had never had in mortality, although I suppose that babies who are born without legs or something crazy like that would get legs in the afterlife, so I guess it could make sense that all minorities would get a different skin color when they got resurrected. Please understand that when I had these questions, I wasn’t trying to be racist, and I don’t think I was racist, and I hope I’m not being racist now. I was just trying to understand true doctrine.
Is Cain Bigfoot?
Will the Holy Ghost ever get a body?
If I become a God, and I get my own planets, will Christ’s Atonement apply to the people that live on my planets, or will some other person have to do some other Atonement? Or on my planets, can I just figure out some other plan of salvation?
How, exactly, do you make a spirit baby?
Is there still a glowing Tree of Life in Missouri with cherubim and a flaming sword guarding it?
Does the Church have the Sword of Laban locked up in a vault somewhere, or maybe the keep it in the Holy of Holies in the Salt Lake City Temple?
Did Moroni dedicate the land for the Manti temple, as he was journeying alone from Central America to New York? And if so, does that explain why the Manti temple seems to have Native American architecture?
These questions sound funny, but they were real questions! And I had like 30 questions like this! Well, one day, I was chatting with some other missionaries, and one of them said, something like, “I bet the Prophet knows the answers to all these questions. He just can’t talk about it because the Saints aren’t ready to handle it. Maybe if we all read the Book of Mormon every day and did our home teaching every month, then we would have the mysteries revealed to us.”
And another missionary said, “Yeah, I bet the Prophet knows some crazy stuff. And the Twelve. The Seventy probably know a lot of crazy stuff, but not all the crazy stuff like the Prophet does.”
And another missionary said to me, “Hey Elder Telemoonka, you should ask our mission president some of your deep doctrine questions. Unless you become a Stake President or something, you’ll probably never get another opportunity in your life to talk with a mission president one-on-one. He probably knows the answers to a lot of these questions”
And that missionary was right, you know. Ordinary members never really get an opportunity to ask doctrinal questions to high-ranking Church leaders. So one time I prepared for an interview with my mission president by making a list of 30 or so deep doctrine questions. I was determined to ask them and I was going to write down whatever he said. I knew his time was precious, so I was going to talk fast.
After talking about the ordinary stuff like, “How’s the missionary work going, Elder?” I started asking him the questions, and he gave very brief, vague answers. After about a minute or two, his body language changed. I could tell my mission president did not like my questions. I said, “Keep in mind, President, I believe in milk before meat. I would never teach this stuff to investigators. But I want to know the truth, and I know that you’re a really smart mission president who has studied the gospel his whole life, and I’ll never get this opportunity again, so that’s why I’m asking you these questions.”
Well, he just kept giving short answers, or changing the subject, or saying, “I don’t know. It’s not pertinent to our salvation. I don’t worry about things like that.”
I left the interview feeling kind of bad and kind of confused. I got the impression that it just wasn’t appropriate to ask questions like that. I felt like maybe I had done something wrong. So I never asked him or any other church leader questions like that again. I was really into deep doctrine for a while, but I guess eventually I just stopped caring about the mysteries of eternity.
So, Unknown, I know what you mean about feeling silly when you ask doctrinal questions. The leaders just have this body language that seems to say, “Don’t ask me doctrinal questions. It’s not appropriate.”
OK, that last long post was about my meeting with mission president, 10 years ago. I was into deep doctrine, but I was solidly in the True Believing Mormon Camp. I had my faith crisis 2 years ago, and since then I’ve talked with one stake president and two bishops about my unique testimony. I’ve visited with them for several hours. I even got threatened with a disciplinary council. It’s a long story. If you want to hear more about it, then you can listen to this podcast I was on:
http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/08/05/ben-brother-of-morris/ It’s funny. Church leaders always want to meet in person. They don’t ever want to write letters or emails. That’s probably the safe thing to do. Letters and emails would probably show up on the Internet and make the Church look bad.
In my opinion, more of us should meet with our Church leaders about our historical and doctrinal questions. Well, every individual case is different. It might be scary to have a confrontation, but how is the Church ever going to become more compassionate and understanding if we all keep silent?
Although, I suppose the purpose of the StayLDS forum is not to advocate change in the Church on an institutional scale, but rather to help individual people stay in the Church. Generally speaking, I’m happy with the Church the way it is. I’m glad that you met with your bishop, Unknown, and I’m glad the meeting went well. Church leaders are usually nice people.
Oh yeah, but what I wanted to say was that I too have felt the controversies “melt away” when I’ve met with Church leaders. After a few minutes of chatting with church leaders face to face, I get the impression that the historical and doctrinal questions aren’t that big of a deal. It’s weird. But I think the Spirit is trying to tell me something. I think the Spirit is trying to tell me, the historical and doctrinal issues really aren’t that big of a deal! And what is the big deal? Jesus! And love!
I agree the big deal is love and Jesus Christ, no question about that. Likewise I agree that all of the other stuff is impertinent, yet fun to think about and even discuss sometimes. We had similar discussions as missionaries. However, I do not advocate talking to church/priesthood leaders about serious doubts and doctrinal questions. Before coming here I have made the mistake of doing so with bishops, a stake president, and a HPGL. Not only were my questions not answered or addressed (they also didn’t melt away), I think I’ve earned myself a label as a heretic or perhaps even a dangerous apostate. You admit yourself that you were threatened with church discipline for doing so. Why would we want to do that when we are trying to StayLDS?
Telemoonka, thanks for sharing your experience, good to know I’m not the only one. telemoonka wrote:So, Unknown, I know what you mean about feeling silly when you ask doctrinal questions. The leaders just have this body language that seems to say, “Don’t ask me doctrinal questions. It’s not appropriate.”
This is a bit unfortunate because church HQ refers members with doctrinal questions back to local leaders that aren’t authorized to declare doctrine for the church in the first place.
In regards to whether you should give notice to the Bishop or the head of the organization… Im probably not as versed in church politics as others here since i joined the church about 3 yrs ago, but i have a comment to make. The first calling i had since i joined was very difficult for me. For one reason i didnt get along with one of the other members that i had to work alongside (i had caught them gossiping about me). I also felt uncomfortable since i felt “new” to the Gospel and wanted to sit back a little and observe (not really a choice i found out). Figuring i should go straight to the top i went to the Bishop and shared my concerns. I was rebuffed immediately without thought and told the Bishopric was sure of their decision. I went back again a month or two later and said
look…im really struggling…can you please release me?I was rebuffed again. I relented and after some time asked to to be released again. I was told that they had received revelation that i was to have that calling. I asked but what if i receive revelation that this isnt the right calling for me? Does your revelation trump mine?The answer was yes. I never got released until a friend, as part of a different Presidency, requested me to fill a position based on revelation they received (member for 30 years). I guess as a new convert i dont really have convincing personal revelation. Daeruin wrote:Last year I went in to tithing settlement for the first time in a decade. I told the bishop I hadn’t been paying any tithing for a long time. He told me that he doesn’t even look at the tithing statements. He gives them to people face down and just asks them if they’ve paid a full tithe. I was surprised and impressed. This is a man who trusts people to do what’s right and be honest, and he lets them be accountable to God. Having said that, I wouldn’t expect all local leadership to be like that.
Wow, that would be a new experience. I felt so bad when i had my recent tithing settlement. I had skipped a few weeks but made up for it later on in the year. My Bishop showed me the printout and wanted to know when i was going to make up those weeks that i missed. When i showed him some weeks later in the year where i paid it, he acted like he didnt believe me. I left with this tremendous feeling of guilt when i left his office. I dont plan on going to tithing settlement this year.
wornoutsneakers wrote:Daeruin wrote:Last year I went in to tithing settlement for the first time in a decade. I told the bishop I hadn’t been paying any tithing for a long time. He told me that he doesn’t even look at the tithing statements. He gives them to people face down and just asks them if they’ve paid a full tithe. I was surprised and impressed. This is a man who trusts people to do what’s right and be honest, and he lets them be accountable to God. Having said that, I wouldn’t expect all local leadership to be like that.
Wow, that would be a new experience. I felt so bad when i had my recent tithing settlement. I had skipped a few weeks but made up for it later on in the year. My Bishop showed me the printout and wanted to know when i was going to make up those weeks that i missed. When i showed him some weeks later in the year where i paid it, he acted like he didnt believe me. I left with this tremendous feeling of guilt when i left his office. I dont plan on going to tithing settlement this year.
WOS, I believe Daeruin’s experience is more the norm and yours is the exception. From your description it sounds like you have the kind of bishop we’re all glad we don’t have. I’m sure he doesn’t just bully you, but I’m also sure he takes advantage of your relative newness to the church. Attitudes like those he displays drive people away from the church and I am sorry that you have to deal with that. In the future, perhaps you could counsel with the stake president instead of the bishop, although I know some of them who are like your bishop and some who are reluctant to make themselves available to members. Bishops and stake presidents are like boxes of chocolate – you never know what you’re going to get.
telemoonka wrote:Well, he just kept giving short answers, or changing the subject, or saying, “I don’t know. It’s not pertinent to our salvation. I don’t worry about things like that.”
I had a similar experience. There is part of the facsimile in the BoA that it says will be revealed in the temple. I theorized that it would be the signs and tokens but I didn’t know. I once had an opportunity to have a relatively private meeting with the temple president IN the temple. I figured that this would be my chance. I showed him the facsimile and asked about the meanings refered to. He told me that he didn’t know.
Just like you – I at one time felt that people in positions of authority in the church knew the answers to these things.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.