- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I have a son who just started a job as a new dentist and he has moved back to his home state. I am not sure how he pays his tithing now but I what to talk to him about the different options that we have discussed here. He got out of school with $350000 in debt and he makes a very good income but I don’t want to see him over pay but I don’t want to think that I am trying to interfer too much in his life. How should I approach him and his wife about this or should I not bother? We do have a very good relationship and I don’t want to stick my nose in where it doesn’t belong. What say you? Don’t stick your nose where it doesn’t belong. He and his wife are big kids; they can make that decision. Having said that, if the topic comes up naturally, you could say something like:
Quote:“I’ve been fascinated by how different faithful members interpret the Law of Tithing. I know active members who . . .”
I believe the church’s teaching that tithing should be paid even if you can’t pay rent or buy food is immoral. Just calling it like I see it. I give the church a pass on many fronts, but I can’t on this one. Furthermore, I believe the church’s implying that tithing is 10% of gross is dishonest. It’s own hidden policy is not to specify, but that’s not very clear to the general membership.
I’m all for staying out of the belief of others, including my own children, but in the face of dishonesty and immorality, I do speak up. I believe you SHOULD let your son know that you don’t agree (assuming) that a church-goer should pay even when they can’t afford to. I believe you SHOULD let him know that official policy is that the amount is NOT defined as 10% of gross, and that what he gives is up to him and his wife, but that he should never be made to feel guilty by others for any amount that he contributes to the church.
I agree with Ray that it’s best if it comes up as part of a natural conversation, but if it doesn’t, then I think we all have a duty to inform people who are oblivious to the official policy.
I’ve said this in other threads, but I have no problem with people paying tithing first, even if they can’t pay other obligations, IF (and I stress, IF)the Church then turns around and pays those obligations through fast offering funds, if needed. If it’s a true partnership, I have no problem with it. I also have no problem with people who try to live frugally, pay their financial obligations and then pay tithing on what they consider to be their “increase”. As long as people aren’t making decisions simply as a way to pay as little as possible, and as long as they aren’t living extravagantly and can’t pay what they would consider a proper tithing as a result, I can accept various payment structures as honest and sincere.
I just need to stress that I am not about to condemn or argue with the widow who pays her mite – or insist that she stop doing do, simply I believe differently than she does. I just want to make sure she is taken care of in her need.
I am not one to stick my nose where it doesn’t belong but I have been very up front with my kids as far as not getting into unnecessary debt, buying used cars as opposed to new, save something out of every pay check etc and they have always expressed appreciation for that but when it comes to tithing I am not too sure. I know I would have appreciated a little financial advice when I was younger and if I had known that tithing did not mean 100% for sure gross like I was told most of my life I might have done things a little differently. It would have been nice to have the option. Absolutely, church. I agree with that totally – and, frankly, paying on gross makes no sense to me, no matter what others believe. My children know I pay on net – on the money that I actually have to use. Let me clarify my thinking… I have no problem with people who pay 1% tithing. I have no problem with people who pay 90% tithing. It is their money. Let them do with it what they choose. I believe that giving is good. In addition, the Church operates primarily on donations, so it is necessary for the Church membership to support the Church in that way. But I start with the premise that the money belongs to the individual, not to God or the Church, and it is their prerogative to give how they see fit.
That said, I do have a problem with the Church instructing members to pay even when they can’t.
Here is the official, and highly visible, statement on tithing to our youth, ages 12-18:
Quote:Choosing to live the law of tithing will be a great blessing throughout your life. A tithe is one-tenth of your income… Pay it first, even when you think you do not have enough money to meet your other needs. — For the Strength of the Youth, 2012
Here is a statement in the Ensign from 8 months ago:
Quote:If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing. — Ensign, December, 2012
As for increase/net/gross, I am very happy with the Church’s official policy. I am furious that the Church keeps it quiet, knowing full-well that the general membership tends toward gross, not realizing that anything else is a fully-sanctioned option. I didn’t know about the official policy for a decade after my faith crisis. How is a member of the Church in Payson supposed to know about it?
So, yes, I applaud those who give any measure of donations to the Church, I only want for the Church to lay off behavior that, to me, is immoral and irresponsible .
Therefore, when it comes to talking to our kids, I believe we have an obligation, forced on us by the stance of the Church. In my line of thinking, we need to tell our kids that they should NOT give if they don’t have basic life needs satisfied. And we should instruct them about the Church’s policy about what constitutes tithing.
On our now, I too feel like I have an obligation to talk to my kids for the reasons you mentioned. How they decide to pays is their business but I want them to have the facts and I don’t see them getting that in their regular meetings. I have been wrestling with this for some time and I think it is time to speak up. I think I will try to have it come up in a natural way and not make it a single point of our conversation. I think I might mention that if you had to take out $350k in debt to earn his salary that perhaps that should come into consideration. His “increase” at the start of his career is now -350,000 + interest, so I would think no tithing should be paid until the income derived from that investment exceeds the cost. Or at the very least, deduct the amount paid on that loan from the increase monthly as you go along. This isn’t cheating or being greedy. If you took an investor who was the most TBM in the world, they would not buy an asset for $200k, sell it for $250k, and then consider the entire $250k as profit (or increase or interest).
I think it becomes easier when you are running your own business to see the true profit+loss statements and calculate your true increase. For those who are working stiffs, we get a check every two weeks, but never take into account the cost of earning that money. Clothing, meals, gas, car, loans, etc, all add up to the cost of earning that money – which reduces the actual household “increase”.
I respect that, church0333 – and I support anyone who wants to calculate tithing in the way that Brown just explained. It’s not how I do it, but I think it absolutely is a legitimate way to approach it. I agree with On Own Now about how we’re often taught in the church to pay tithing even though you may not have money for anything else you need. I know the Lord blesses people in his own way and time, but are people always supposed to suffer needlessly? We’re even taught in the church not to be irresponsible with money. I have no problem with tithing, but sometimes having faith is used as a excuse to give dangerous statements, which cause people to make sacrifices the Lord may not want people to make. I guess it comes down to what you consider an “increase”. If I can’t pay for the very basics of life even with my income, do I have any increase? What has been increased? Now one might argue that in many cases the reason one can’t pay their bills is because they are overextended and received more increase than they could handle. I’m not saying you don’t pay because you have a $1000 car payment. But if you are really talking about the difference between eviction and tithing, choosing eviction means you are getting a net decrease. Tithing should still leave you with a 90% increase.
The other thing that ruffles my feathers is truly broke and suffering people giving their last dime and eating Ramen for 2 weeks to give a $100 to a church that has hundreds of millions in the bank. I know that’s not what it is all about, but please, the logic is painful.
Some thoughts on what to say to our kids: – I think it’s important to support the concept of charitable giving in general, and tithing in particular as a premise for conversations. If a parent comes at a child with reasons not to give as much, the message will come across as questioning why they give at all.
– With that framework, I think it is perfectly fine to say that you disagree with the teaching that people should pay even when they don’t have enough for basic necessities, and then talk about ways that people in that situation can still contribute (time, talents, energy).
– Fast offering is a great opportunity for people to give, if they don’t feel they are giving enough in tithing. Since the concept is to give up 2 meals a month, and to give what you saved so that others might eat, I think this is a great, and undervalued alternative. There will still be people who can’t afford this, but they are fewer.
– In the case of your son, church, I would probably lean on the idea that there is plenty of time in the future when he’ll be a major contributor in tithing, so concentrating on paying off his debt is not “cheating” God. I’d also mention that the debt burden would be insurmountable to his family if he were to become unable to practice for any reason, so he has a family responsibility to get that burden resolved as soon as possible. I might use the example life insurance and say something like, “obviously, you wouldn’t forgo life insurance in order to pay tithing. That wouldn’t be responsible, because you are risking your wife’s welfare. So, just make sure that you are taking care of your family first, which I think God understands.”
Brown wrote:I guess it comes down to what you consider an “increase”. If I can’t pay for the very basics of life even with my income, do I have any increase? What has been increased?
The other thing that ruffles my feathers is truly broke and suffering people giving their last dime and eating Ramen for 2 weeks to give a $100 to a church that has hundreds of millions in the bank. I know that’s not what it is all about, but please, the logic is painful.
I was one of those people, not just once or twice but several times before it hit meIt took a few years of therapy to understand that some “fundamentalist” beliefs are more harmful then good.
Physiology on the whole sees some of these teachings including this as doing more harm
Then good as in my case and are on the page as treating these teachings like these and others as a mental illness.
Twice did I give money after paying my bills and tithing. The first I staved with 0 food for 1 week while working, the second I starved for 1 1/2 weeks and wound up in the hospital. The 3rd I became homeless on Christmas Day from paying first.
I was homeless for a few months.
For this and many other personal reasons I can not sit by and watch anyone teach extremes in any condition or environment and not say something, though make sure to say it politely.
I love the concept of tithes, in context and reached responsibly(without the expectation of divine intervention).
My wife disagrees with my feelings and that is fine. But no one can take away the lack of the magic check not appearing being used 1000s of times over when ever tithing is taught. It’s irrepressible.
I love my bishop, but when I explained my story to him all he did was testify that it is true that god will make up the difference and ill magically be able to pay my bills. Even after I explained everything that happened he basically ignores it and metaphorically trampled on me and my experiences and gave his testimony of his magic check that came from the IRS tax refund out of nowhere. Umm, didn’t you do your taxes? When you did them you didn’t know you had a refund? Or that it would be coming in approximate weeks? The logic and reason is 0 here. It is all based on mysticism and romantically view.
I do not tolerate extreme teaching any more, no matter the principle. It takes a nice concept and distorts it till it losses all meaning with mysticism and romance. A good portion of psychologist are on the same page and classify it as a disorder now.
Not the people but the extreme teachings themselves and those that take them seriously.
I’ve talked about it at length with many.
I look at things now through a filter of mental health and “emotional, and physical well being”.
Things that accomplish that are used to their potential, things that don’t are now tossed.
I think it is hard to give advice to adult children. I have heard that if it must be done then one should meet with the couple together rather than seperately. Otherwise this might set them against each other. I would hate if DW came to me saying that her parents are talking to her about the blessing of paying a full tithe. In my TBM days I saw tithing a determining factor in God “watching my back.” I literally felt that God would honor my tithing compliance by protecting my family from disaster. DW on the other hand feels that it is God’s money to begin with and anything less than full compliance is “robbery.” After I stopped paying, she had trouble declaring herself as a full tithe payer even after the bishop explained to her that she doesn’t make any money. If this is how your son and DIL feel about tithing – proposing anything less than the party line could be frought with landmines. “What do you mean that the promised blessings might only be spiritual?” “Are you saying that the terms of tithing payment are negotiable?” “Why is this so different from what we hear in GC?” “I’ve heard that reduction/cessation of tithing payments is the first step to apostasy.”
Call me chicken – but I would err on the side of minding my own business. OTOH, I wouldn’t mind saying something like what Ray mentioned – “I’ve talked to numerous faithful LDS that calculate a full tithing in different ways and have found it fascinating. I never would have guessed that there are so many alternatives.” – if it came up in casual conversation.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.