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I am writing this in response to the argument about tea, and I am hoping to broaden this into a larger discussion, because I think it is warranted. Does anyone on this list really believe that the GOD who created this universe, in all its vastness and complexity, really cares whether any of us drink tea, of all things? But, then, why stop there? Do you think he cares whether we drink beer, wine, or hard liquor? What about smoking pot? What about even harder drugs? To be sure, we, as a society, have decided that some drugs should be classified illegal and others allowable, and for good reason. But that has NO relation to God’s law on the matter. So I ask you, does God really care if we use substances of this sort? Is there any proof that such substances are of the devil? How do we know for certain that such substances might not, in fact, enhance our faith rather than hinder it? I don’t think the church’s answers in this regard are entirely viable. Especially since it is well established that the Word of Wisdom is followed by the righteous as to its prohibitions on alcohol and drugs but not dietary concerns by the vast majority of Mormons. Most of the Mormons I know eat meat daily, despite the WofW’s prohibition against doing so and all the health problems that we now know come with doing that. Personally, I would love to fry on mushrooms in the temple (at least once). That”s not a joke. curt wrote:I am writing this in response to the argument about tea, and I am hoping to broaden this into a larger discussion, because I think it is warranted. Does anyone on this list really believe that the GOD who created this universe, in all its vastness and complexity, really cares whether any of us drink tea, of all things?
No, I do not.
curt wrote:But, then, why stop there? Do you think he cares whether we drink beer, wine, or hard liquor? What about smoking pot? What about even harder drugs?
No, I do not.
However I think there could be some bad
consequencesthat may happen to some of those who do … and I’m pretty confident that god WOULD care about that. I think he does want us to find peace and happiness, and I’m not sure being strung out on meth would qualify? curt wrote:… Especially since it is well established that the Word of Wisdom is followed by the righteous as to its prohibitions on alcohol and drugs but not dietary concerns by the vast majority of Mormons. Most of the Mormons I know eat meat daily, despite the WofW’s prohibition against doing so and all the health problems that we now know come with doing that.
Yeah. That’s pretty well established. We have been talking this issue recently on a thread I started, if you’re interested in reading what I and many others feel about it. i don’t think many folks on here will argue with you about that statement. I would interested to hear more about your opinion on the WofW, as it is not really a big deal to most folks on this site. I think most folks here have learned to live with it, “it is what is”. It’s not their issue, but it is a huge doctrinal issue for me to reconcile with. Here is the link.
Could This WofW story be for real?http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1414 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1414 curt wrote:… Personally, I would love to fry on mushrooms in the temple (at least once). That”s not a joke.
I believe you are not joking, and neither am I when I say I would be glad to join you if it’s ever sanctioned by the church. I believe chemically induced spiritually has merit. It certainly worked for Poe and Beethoven. (Of course, it killed them in the end…)
As someone who brought this up, I’d better put my word in… I actually like tea, and see nothing “sinful” in it in the moral sense (unlike alcohol and cannabis which frequently modify behavior for the worse). However, chemically there are some big problems with it if it consumed too often.
For one, it contains tannin which is carcinogenic:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/187761 It also contains caffeine of course. I was having to cut mine down anyway. I’d stopped drinking it after 7 or 8 at night, because it was giving me insomnia, meaning I wasn’t getting sleep til late in the morning. It can also damage your bowels, by hardening the stool, leading to hemorrhoids, and other similar complaints. Then there
There are a handful of people with a gene which allows them to resist any effect from caffeine, but there aren’t many of them.
Quote:Do you think he cares whether we drink beer, wine, or hard liquor? What about smoking pot?
I have first hand experience of people who’ve overindulged in both of these. In fact, I have to deal with drunks and alcoholics on a regular basis, and it’s not fun. There is a lot of trouble here at weekends because of it… you can see smashed windows around the place, and splashes of vomit. Most wife beatings in this neck of the woods are supposedly alcohol induced as well. I’ve had to stop because it doesn’t take much of the stuff to get me into trouble.
The anti-cannabis lobby can be ridiculous, but the pro-cannabis lobby is economical with the truth as well. It can cause paranoia (something I’ve witnessed myself in friends), and even trigger schizophrenia. (Again, I know someone whose schizophrenia may have been exacerbated by cannabis use in his youth. He had his first full blown schizoid episodes around the time he’d been using the stuff for a while) Also you’re as likely to develop lung cancer from the stuff as regular cigarettes.
I think liquor and cannabis are a different kettle of fish to tea and coffee, or even nicotine (to an extent, because that can make people bad tempered), because they modify behavior, moral or otherwise. To be honest, I like some kinds of liquor, but cannabis I’ve never enjoyed.
Quote:So I ask you, does God really care if we use substances of this sort? Is there any proof that such substances are of the devil? How do we know for certain that such substances might not, in fact, enhance our faith rather than hinder it? I don’t think the church’s answers in this regard are entirely viable. Especially since it is well established that the Word of Wisdom is followed by the righteous as to its prohibitions on alcohol and drugs but not dietary concerns by the vast majority of Mormons. Most of the Mormons I know eat meat daily, despite the WofW’s prohibition against doing so and all the health problems that we now know come with doing that. Personally, I would love to fry on mushrooms in the temple (at least once). That”s not a joke.
I think the proof that some of these substances are devilish (as opposed to of the devil?) is the fact that they can lead to unpleasant and violent behavior in individuals who would not normally be that way. I have never committed a criminal act (let’s forget about certain auto offenses for now!) while sober, but have a criminal record as a direct result of being drunken. If I had been sober, at that particular time, I woudn’t have done the things I did on that particular occasion. So, do I “sin” while sober? Definitely! Do I sin more when drunk? Usually.
I think tea and coffee, not to mention chocolate and fast food (which has addictive qualities), can be bad for the body in large quantities, but they aren’t a moral problem.
Laws about drugs are arbitrary, but some of them are needed. I think a prohibitionist stance, and puritanical attitude to addicts doesn’t work. I agree with the idea of shooting galleries, for example, where heroin addicts can go to use clean needles to avoid disease, and other methods to take the drug trade out of the hands of criminals, rather than just banning it, and creating a massive black market.
I agree with your point about meat, but check out D&C 49
18. And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;
19. For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.
Quote:Personally, I would love to fry on mushrooms in the temple (at least once).
My father used to deal with the fall out from LSD, which has a related chemical in it. I wouldn’t recommend it for a variety of reasons. Of some people just one trip is enough to fry their mind.
I don’t personally think that any substance, not even the worst hardcore drugs, creates a supernatural “taint.” Those do not make us “unworthy” or ineligible for the love of God. God made them. We should use anything and everything “prudently.” The flip side of that though is responsibility. If we consume something that makes us “stupid” (for lack of a better word), we are still responsible for the damage we may cause. *THAT* will bring us down. I am seeing pretty much everything this way. There are actions and there are consequences. The punishment for bad choices are bad consequences — creating suffering for others and our self.
I like to think God is a loving Father. To see a child of His strung out on meth, or crack babies being born would matter to Him. Is it a sin to want to jump in the air? No. Is it tragic to see someone commit suicide by jumping off a building? Yes, and whatever we can do or try to come up with to help keep people from the tragedy is a worthwhile cause. That may mean putting up large fences at the top of the Empire State Building, which obstructs the view of everyone…but it is worth it to perhaps help prevent the one or two cases of a tragedy.
That is how the origin of this Word of Wisdom starts. From there, people take it to levels all their own.
I would say the only thing God really cares about is if we use the intelligence he gave us and make intelligent decisions. Beyond that there is no point in trying to figure out what God wants or cares about. It is impossible to know unless he visits you personally and tells you. A hundred religions and doctrines are available to guide you if you can not make decisions on your own. I now believe doctrines like the WofW are just control mechanisms put in place by men to manage the behavior of members. Some doctrines may be good advice but that in no way makes them directives from God. Cadence wrote:I now believe doctrines like the WofW are just control mechanisms put in place by men to manage the behavior of members.
I agree. Maybe that is why the WofW is an issue for me. Alcohol, tobacco etc are NOT the issue -for me -but the mere fact that I feel like this whole thing is “a contrl mechanism put in place by men to manage the behavior of members” sits in my craw. It’s the control issue. Same reason the white shirt policy bothers me. Perhaps this is the very root of my “crisis of faith.” I think I’m too stubborn, rebellious and independent to be TBM. I mean, there is a very popular belief among historians that organized religions were created for that very purpose, or at least they evolved into that purpose – to control the masses. (Spock – we should probably make a whole new thread on this one, if you’re interested?)
SamBee, I looked at that link and found it to be less than useful in this argument. Yes, there are tannins in tea, but tannins are different from tannic acid which is not contained in tea. Herbal teas and cocoa also have tannins and all kinds of foods have some carcinogenic effects. Also, this linked review notes that, although tannins might be carcinogenic, they also have health benefits. I would like to see the entire report because this review really doesn’t have much of a conclusion. I don’t tend to like to refer to Wikipedia, but here is a good summary of what tannins are and what foods have them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin and here is a fun one about carcinogens:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2001/sep/06/medicalscience.healthandwellbeing I prefer green tea to soda. I also tend to think that soda is far worse for the human body than tea. Of course, moderation in all things.
Someherbal teas. For example, chamomile is bad in large quantities for your liver, but in smaller quantities, it helps with depression, and insomnia. To me, everything depends on what the purpose of life is. In the lds church, it is to become like God. We are taught our bodies are temples and so anything that does not lead to being the best we can be, would not be good. For some eating strawberries or wheat would make them sick. Overeating, flares up my gal bladder. Sugar causes inflammation in me. So, whatever things, foods, or thoughts affect us adversely and keep us from becoming Christlike should be the goal. The church gives general guildlines, and then we should govern ourselves. The problem is that most of us are not very disciplined. I heard that in the early church when the WoW was just a suggestion, church leaders would go down to St. George Utah for example and find some of their bishops drunk. Some callings are so stressful, that if not drinking alcohol were not a commandment, must of us would get drunk from time to time. If we did not have traffic laws, I would probably speed more. I am glad there are laws against cell phone and texting while driving now as it has made me realize how dangerous that is. Our lives do not just effect us and we could use more common sense in this world. I absolutely believe God cares about what we put in our bodies – which is why I think he probably disapproves of most colas more than herbal teas. 
I also think he cares deeply about “hard drugs”.
cwald wrote:Cadence wrote:I now believe doctrines like the WofW are just control mechanisms put in place by men to manage the behavior of members.
I agree. Maybe that is why the WofW is an issue for me. Alcohol, tobacco etc are NOT the issue -for me -but the mere fact that I feel like this whole thing is “a contrl mechanism put in place by men to manage the behavior of members” sits in my craw. It’s the control issue. Same reason the white shirt policy bothers me. Perhaps this is the very root of my “crisis of faith.” I think I’m too stubborn, rebellious and independent to be TBM.
I would add that it is not even a conscious decision on leaders part. I do not believe they sit around and try to figure out how to control the lives of the members. What does happen is they feel compelled to move everyone in a common direction so they institute policies that will do just that. It may not be malicious, but it can many times have a negative or contrary effect than they desire. Such as how many people over the years do not participate because of the WofW. Of course you could make the argument there are those who do because of the WofW. I just take the position it is better to keep the rules and regulations at a minimum and focus on the spiritual aspects of religion. Science and common sense can take care of the rational arguments.
@curt Rather than answering your question, I’m going to challenge your post.
1. You’ve used “begging the question” to answer an important question. This is a fallacious argument.
2. Not sure what this means “Is there any proof that such substances are of the devil?” but I don’t know of any modern church leader that preaches this. In any case, what proof do you have that there is a devil? Since when have theological claims had anything to do with proof?
3. “How do we know for certain that such substances might not, in fact, enhance our faith rather than hinder it?” Depends on your point of view, and how you regard science. In any case, how do you know for certain there is a God at all? Such arguments do little to settle a theological debate.
The WoW as defined in the LDS church (including our list of substances to avoid) is tradition wrapped up in a theological argument. There is never any proof of such an argument – they are to be taken on faith. One can make all kinds of appeals to science and studies showing the goodness or badness of ingesting/smoking/injecting substances but it won’t change the nature of the WoW. I think there is good reasoning to limit one’s use of many substances found in this world, as indicated by numerous studies. But I don’t accept nor reject the WoW based on those “proofs.”
As for me, I accept the WoW because I have decided to be a member of the LDS church in good standing, and hold a TR. As a result, my integrity leads me to obey the WoW as a part of that decision.
I agree with Eu here, and would add a few things. The WoW was given with moderation in mind. So, wine, beer, etc used in moderation is fine, and I don’t think God has a problem with it overall. But as Brian suggested, it is an integrity issue with the TR. I know some people get really frustrated by it, but I don’t understand why it is a big deal. It is for the weakest of the saints (those that might abuse), so it shouldn’t be hard (but perhaps annoying) to the stronger saints. As far as hard liquor, the Bible makes it clear that drunkeness is a bad thing, and there are many references to that. So, no hard liquor isn’t evil per se, but I think it is much harder to use in moderaten.
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