Tea Argument Ridiculous

[Anonymous]

I’ve always looked at the WoW in three ways, a reflection of the time and interest in health issues, good advice regarding health, and a test of obedience. A number of churches at that time in history were looking at health issues including vegetarianism, temperance and avoidance of tobacco. As far as it’s being a revelation, I don’t thik so. Seventh Day Adventists emphasized all the things that are in the WoW and continue to have it as a tenet of their religion but not as much of a hard and fast requirement as the LDS church. The advice regarding tobacco and limiting meat consumption is just good health advice. The other things, coffee and tea, are interesting as they were listed along with flour, salt, etc.. on the things needed for the trek west in Arrington’s book “Great Basin Kingdom”. Now I think the WoW is just an obedience test that you can make a big deal about and decide for yourself if not having a TR or being able to bless or baptize your kid is worth a beer or a cup of coffee.

[Anonymous]

Green Tea is loaded with antioxidants, but the antioxidants must be released through heating, such as in hot tea. Buying bottled green tea is of little value because the antioxidants are inactivated as the tea sits on the shelve.

The only danger I see in “hot drinks” is from burning. I know a little girl who got too close to a coffee brewing machine and split boiling hot coffee down herself.

For this reason, drinks like hot chocolate should be served warm, not hot, when children are around. Same goes for soups. I’ve seen some pretty severe soup burns.

Common sense should be the rule.

[Anonymous]

GBSmith wrote:

Now I think the WoW is just an obedience test that you can make a big deal about and decide for yourself if not having a TR or being able to bless or baptize your kid is worth a beer or a cup of coffee.

This is my view as well, GB. But it raises an issue I will explain below.

Euhemerus wrote:

As for me, I accept the WoW because I have decided to be a member of the LDS church in good standing, and hold a TR. As a result, my integrity leads me to obey the WoW as a part of that decision.

The thing for me to work through in my mind is, I do not like blind obedience. Now I am not saying you are in favor of blind obedience or that you imply it in your message, but there is that tone of “I don’t believe it is a revelation as we are taught it by the church now, I will obey it anyway”. Personally, that is how I think through it…it is just not a big deal, so I am not sacrificing anything by giving up tea to be in good church standings, so I choose to live it.

The more I study about the church history and the doctrines, the more guarded I am that I am responsible for my doctrine that I believe in, and let go of the doctrines that make no sense to me. But in this case, letting go of WoW could prevent me from baptizing my son, as GB referred to. And that doesn’t make sense to me.

And so, I seem to go through these gymnastics in my head:

1) Tea is not big deal, just let it go because I care nothing about it, and so I live the WoW at no real cost to my daily lifestyle, and can focus on the blessings of living that lifestyle;

2) The principle of the matter is, I have a problem with the church saying Tea is something that could keep me from baptizing my son. I don’t agree with that. I think that is wrong. I think God could care less if I’m drinking Tea. I think others who baptize their kids are doing much worse things than if I had some tea regularly. The church has been wrong on other things in the past, should I stand up for the principle of the matter here?

Perhaps I feel I should save my questioning/doubting “capital”, and pick my battles to use it when I need to. But that is my challenge I go back and forth on between these 2 thoughts.

[Anonymous]

GBSmith wrote:

Now I think the WoW is just an obedience test that you can make a big deal about and decide for yourself if not having a TR or being able to bless or baptize your kid is worth a beer or a cup of coffee.

Euhemerus wrote:

As for me, I accept the WoW because I have decided to be a member of the LDS church in good standing, and hold a TR. As a result, my integrity leads me to obey the WoW as a part of that decision.

These two comments COULD be mildly offensive to me. (I’ve read GB and Euhemerus enough on these blogs to not be offended, however, if I heard this from a TBM — yeah, I would be offended.)

I think Heber took the words right out of my mouth.

Quote:

I do not like blind obedience. Now I am not saying you are in favor of blind obedience or that you imply it in your message, but there is that tone of “I don’t believe it is a revelation as we are taught it by the church now, I will obey it anyway”…The more I study about the church history and the doctrines, the more guarded I am that I am responsible for my doctrine that I believe in, and let go of the doctrines that make no sense to me. But in this case, letting go of WoW could prevent me from baptizing my son, as GB referred to. And that doesn’t make sense to me.

2) The principle of the matter is, I have a problem with the church saying Tea is something that could keep me from baptizing my son. I don’t agree with that. I think that is wrong. I think God could care less if I’m drinking Tea. I think others who baptize their kids are doing much worse things than if I had some tea regularly. The church has been wrong on other things in the past, should I stand up for the principle of the matter here?

Okay, so we want to have “test of obedience”? How about this test. “allow me to marry your 14 year old daughter in polygamy – and secure yourself a spot in the celestial kingdom.” Or how about this one, “turn over all your money and property and let the church dole out what you need to survive.” “Pack up your family and all your belongings and start a new settlement in Malad” “Go on a mission for five years, and while you’re gone your wife is going to get married/sealed to one of the apostles.” “Even though you can’t even buy food for your family, make sure you pay tithing so you can keep TR.” “It doesn’t matter if you think you are in love, he is black so you cannot marry him.” I could go on and on with REAL “tests” from church history. So what’s next? Wear a white shirt to church, shave (no mustache or goatee), take out your ear ring, AND now we are going to ask you to wear a PINK suit every week. I know it doesn’t make sense, it’s not suppose to, but we just want to see if you will be obedient to the hierarchy of the church. And oh by the way, if you decide it’s not logical and you’re not going to follow it – we are going to prohibit you from performing priesthood functions or participating in the temple…nor will you be allowed to attend your kids temple marriages — all you have to do is just wear that pink suit and show the church leaders you are willing to be obedient.

This whole WoW “commandment” aggravates me to no end (of course you all know that from my previous blowups on this site 👿 ) Here is it again though, stated much more PC than I could say it.

Quote:

I think others who baptize their kids are doing much worse things than if I had some tea regularly. The church has been wrong on other things in the past…

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

This whole WoW “commandment” aggravates me to no end (of course you all know that from my previous blowups on this site 👿 )

Yikes.. 😯 …did I just fuel the fire, cwald?

Actually, I think it is a fair question. I doubt I’ll ever have influence to make the church change their policy…so the question I go through is how do I deal with this issue, and others that run along these lines of “obedience” vs. my personal integrity? I’m hoping to learn from all of you how you choose to do it.

But I will admit, I would never let a cup of tea cause my complete separation from the church or witnessing my kids’ marriages. That would have to be the “last straw” not the only straw for me.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

cwald wrote:

This whole WoW “commandment” aggravates me to no end (of course you all know that from my previous blowups on this site 👿 )

Yikes.. 😯 …did I just fuel the fire, cwald?

Nah, It’s all good.

[Anonymous]

Well, I’ll say it again. I don’t think anyone will go to hell for drinking black tea. However, there are health problems associated with it, and I believe it might have helped kill my mother.

[Anonymous]

Look, I respect others opinions, and I respect those who follow this “commandment” even though they believe it is BS. Great! I’m happy for you, really. I’m just not the kind of guy who will obey something “just because”. In fact, when I believe statement like this, which I do absolutely agree with –

Cadence wrote:

…A hundred religions and doctrines are available to guide you if you can not make decisions on your own. I now believe doctrines like the WofW are just control mechanisms put in place by men to manage the behavior of members. Some doctrines may be good advice but that in no way makes them directives from God.

it makes me want to drink tea just to ensure that I’m not being controlled. 😈 😈 Does that make sense to anyone? Perhaps I just have too much of a rebellious nature. 😈

AND now that the Pres. Grant decided it is a “commandment from god” the rest of the masses who won’t follow it are left out of some of the great opportunities the church has to offer ie temples, priesthood functions, callings, family marriages etc. In fact – one cannot EVEN join the church unless they COMMIT to follow it. It really is all about the principle of control and ” blind obedience” to me. I know enough about church history to know how so many people were taken advantage of because of “just trying to be obedient and listen to the prophet” (polygamy, consecration, blacks/priesthood, tithing, missions, woman’s rights, friends of scouting, gays, etc….), and I’m not willing to fall into that boat of being taken advantage of – at least not on this issue.

Forgive my rantings again — this is the only SAFE place have left.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

it makes me want to drink tea just to ensure that I’m not being controlled. Does that make sense to anyone? Perhaps I just have too much of a rebellious nature.

Oh I understand that completely! 😆 Tell me to do one thing enough, and I’ll tend to do the other!

However, if I may put my own side over… I feel this is a personal choice for me. I’ve only been living the WoW for about two months now since coming back. It’s actually something I want to do, even if I do get cravings occasionally. I’m sick of drinking, for one reason and another, and my doctor told me to cut down my caffeine consumption after i went to see him about something. So, that’s how I feel, and I don’t feel controlled in that sense, I’m just trying to take a bit of control back over my body. (Along with trying to eat well, exercising and so on) Drink makes me misbehave myself, tobacco is something I’ve never been into.

Come back to me in six months though, and I may have a different opinion.

I see alcohol being a problem, but I’m not going to be judgmental about tea and coffee in other people. I also appreciate that tobacco is extremely hard to quit, and so I try to cut other people some slack about that too.

I really don’t see this as being in the same ugly category as the racism issue, women’s rights, homophobia or even polygamy.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

it makes me want to drink tea just to ensure that I’m not being controlled. 😈 😈 Does that make sense to anyone?

Makes a lot of sense for me. Perhaps that is why we flock together here at this site!

I’m so bad, my wife has learned that if she ever leaves me a honey-do list for Saturday…I will make it my mission to do so many things to show how productive I was…and make sure I do none of the things on the list. 😳 😳

She’s learned to deal with me (sometimes with reverse psychology). I’m like a teenager sometimes still. 🙄

[Anonymous]

Quote:

it makes me want to drink tea just to ensure that I’m not being controlled. Does that make sense to anyone?

Yeah, cwald, it makes sense. It’s the other side of the blind obedience coin. That’s worth considering – completely apart from the WofW discussion here.

I’m not saying you must accept the WofW – but it’s still worth considering your reaction as a different manifestation of what you decry (rightly) in others.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Heber said:

“The thing for me to work through in my mind is, I do not like blind obedience. Now I am not saying you are in favor of blind obedience or that you imply it in your message, but there is that tone of “I don’t believe it is a revelation as we are taught it by the church now, I will obey it anyway”.

I don’t care much for blind obedience either but in this case I’ve never seen it as obedience. I don’t congratulate myself on making good choices when I pass a Starbucks, I just don’t drink coffee or tea and there’s nothing moral or religious about it. On the other hand I have an acquaintance that considers a single cup of coffee a convenient sin that keeps him on the fringe and off the bishop’s radar.

I have bridled about some other tests given that I was divorced and while single couldn’t be a temple worker and have a beard which means I can’t be a veil or a temple worker either. I was grumpy for awhile about that but then I reasoned that I didn’t want to do that either so I just forgot about it.

cwald managed to touch on every aggravating thing about church history that’s bothered me so I can honestly say I feel your pain. Hope I wasn’t part of the fire lighting.

[Anonymous]

GBSmith wrote:

cwald managed to touch on every aggravating thing about church history that’s bothered me so I can honestly say I feel your pain. Hope I wasn’t part of the fire lighting.

Hey, it’s all good. I’ve read enough of your posts to know you’re not preaching or being TBM on me – there is a reason you’re on this site – like the rest of us. When i hear these kind of things coming from bishops, brain-washed family members, and overweight gossipy RS presidents, that’s when the hide really starts to chap.

[Anonymous]

Cwald, some of your comment make me chuckle, because I have a rebellious streak at times too. I agree with SamBee on this issue: “I really don’t see this as being in the same ugly category as the racism issue, women’s rights, homophobia or even polygamy.” It seems more like a white shirt thing to me (I’m rebellious because I rarely wear white shirts to church.) I’m not quite sure why this is a hot-button issue for you, but it is what it is. I just say that you need to pick your battles; disobeying the WoW is a losing proposition, and I don’t think it is a battle worth fighting. However, blue shirts are fine, and can keep you off the high council (though I’m sure someone like Ray probably enjoys his position there.)

Even then, my old bishop never wore white shirts before his call, and he picked a counselor with a beard, so I guess beards and blue shirts don’t always keep one safe from these callings. 😆

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

It’s the other side of the blind obedience coin. That’s worth considering – completely apart from the WofW discussion here.

Yep. This is why I chuckle at the idea of rebelling “against the man” just because “the man” makes a rule. Rebellious individuals detest the control they feel is placed on them, and their solution to overthrow the control is to do the opposite. The great irony is a good controller will recognize this and manipulate the individual. Witness communist Russia!

cwald, you should do, and not do things because you want to or think it right/wrong. Any other reason is simply granting too much power to anyone else and does nothing for your personal growth. Occasionally, it behooves us though to take the advice of those gone before. It’s a tricky balance.

I wrote a post about this a while back on MM. The very first step in dealing with a disaffection, IMHO, is to take the power back (think Rage Against the Machine here). You, and you alone, are responsible for your spirituality, your choice of religion, your actions. Once you decide that you are in control, the burden of choice is shifted to you, and the burden of anger with the church is abated, and you are free to examine your actions from a new perspective. In my post at MM I describe one path (my chosen path) after taking back the power. I discovered that while my disaffection was instigated by, and directly linked to the church, it was really about me.

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