- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I believe we do have the moral high ground when we take the Nancy Reagon, and Spencer Kimball approach and advise… JUST DO IT. Do what is right and let the consequences follow. To me personally this is not a nuisanced discussion at all. Mom3 is correct. … just do it.
mom3 wrote:SD wrote
Quote:The weaker your faith, the more susceptible you are to other faith-detracting experiences that lead to departure.
I sort of agree, but not completely. I believed I was strong in my faith, not just my religious practice but my faith. I honestly did not have a shelf, as the analogy goes. When I learned stuff I didn’t fall over, when I fell over was when I saw the impact of stuff on other people. Thus my faith in the institution fell. A lot of my preconceived acceptances hit the dirt. And yes I am distant from my religion. This is largely because I mourn. It is more than the fallibility issue for me. It is the Potemkin Village affect our religion has created that is my wrestle. Releasing the essays and acknowledging events in our history is a way, in my mind, to make the village stronger.
I don’t think anyone really knows where they are weak or strong. That’s the glorious surprise of this life. I did all the Sunday School answer stuff, with complete sincerity. I had few doubts or questions. I really believed I had a clear vision of life. Today I see a new vision. I have new people I mourn for, people I never imagined existed – us. I had to lose so I could find. Someday the empathy I have gained will be useful. After a decade of this, and ranging wide on it, I have determined it all comes down to choice. However that choice often needs a dark night of the soul. So are we doing anyone any favors by not letting them learn and see where they stand? I don’t want to send people away, but if this life is to be a growth towards Godhood, is it wise to postpone an experience out of fear. For God himself has said, “God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind.” I believe if the church released the essays boldly – they would be surprised by a positive result. The first bit might be a bit bumpy but it wouldn’t take long to iron out.
My experience is that God is not a helicopter parent. He wants us to “go” – knowing we are going to trip, fall, skin our knees – or maybe even knock a tooth out.Quote:If Pres. Monson stood up tomorrow and said we were reinstituting polygamy and walking to Missouri, the vast majority of the rank and file would raise their hands to sustain the action and start packing their hand carts. The essays are not nearly as big as that.
I actually don’t agree with this. It’s one thing to accept rhetoric and doctrine and quite another to move to Missouri. Most modern people will seek an exemption from such a thing. We have jobs. We have lives. We can’t start over financially in an unknown place.
I totally agree with mom3 and nibbler that those who are troubled by the essays are NOT those with “weak” or “less” faith, but those with missplaced faith because only they are highly invested in things that are now known to be incorrect. It’s that investment in what has been discarded that makes the person more at risk. In fact, those with weak faith are likely less invested generally and therefore this wouldn’t be a tipping point.
hawkgrrrl wrote:It’s that investment in what has been discarded that makes the person more at risk. In fact, those with weak faith are likely less invested generally and therefore this wouldn’t be a tipping point.
In this case, I can only speak personally. When I started my commitment crisis, I still had a testimony, but it had taken a beating a number of times. It had been weakened as I started viewing the church like any other temporal organization.
When I read the Priesthood Disavowal Essay, it sort of confirmed a latent hunch I had that much of what we accept as doctrine, is the opinion of an influential person in the church at a certain point in time. And that God WILL allow his prophets to lead the church astray. As he did with shutting the blacks out of the priesthood for over a hundred years due to prophetic statements…and it weakened my faith even further.
I think people with strong faith have so much invested, cognitive dissonance takes over. And they keep on, keeping on.
Really I guess we will never know without serious research.
Just noticing that I’m “all about” the essay when it’s an essay I basically like. I have no affection for the polygamy essays and don’t want those held up as current gospel truth in a lesson. I’m not consistent or, to some people’s thinking, logical, so I guess I shouldn’t expect it of anyone else. All I’m really sure of is that my kid has on several occasions this spring been the only one in class aware of some basic facts. She feels lonely amongst her peers and not too inspired by her teachers. A few boys in her class have their mission calls. She’s wondering how this is going to work.
SD, yes, I see that’s also an issue for some. But here’s why I don’t think the essays are the tipping point in those cases. Because someone with weak faith often has reasons to be there otherthan faith. It could be family ties, desire for community support, or just that they like the routine of going to church, but what’s binding them to it at all isn’t faith. It’s something not assailed by the information in the essays. But I grant you that they do point yet again to the fact that the church is very much a human institution. hawkgrrrl wrote:Quote:If Pres. Monson stood up tomorrow and said we were reinstituting polygamy and walking to Missouri, the vast majority of the rank and file would raise their hands to sustain the action and start packing their hand carts. The essays are not nearly as big as that.
I actually don’t agree with this. It’s one thing to accept rhetoric and doctrine and quite another to move to Missouri. Most modern people will seek an exemption from such a thing. We have jobs. We have lives. We can’t start over financially in an unknown place.
I totally agree with mom3 and nibbler that those who are troubled by the essays are NOT those with “weak” or “less” faith, but those with missplaced faith because only they are highly invested in things that are now known to be incorrect. It’s that investment in what has been discarded that makes the person more at risk. In fact, those with weak faith are likely less invested generally and therefore this wouldn’t be a tipping point.
The underlying premise of moving to Missouri would be that the second coming is at hand. I agree there are certainly people who wouldn’t do it, just as not everyone immigrated to the Salt Lake Valley early on, eventually leading to the current “build Zion where you are” model. However, I believe the rank and file have had “follow the prophet, he knows the way, don’t go astray” drilled into their heads so pervasively that for the most part they will do what he asks. More to the point, if Pres. Monson spoke of the essays and/or quoted from them they would have more credibility simply because he did so.
I agree with the misplaced faith idea. The ones most affected in a negative way about the essays are more likely to be the “God of the Lost Car Keys” types – those who believe they have faith but don’t in reality have faith in the right thing (Jesus Christ). Not to be proud or boastful, but I have come to understand that this is why historical issues have little effect on me – in the end I simply don’t care. they don’t affect my salvation.
DJ, do you have a reference for that Uchtdorf quote? I need it, I need it! 
hawkgrrrl wrote:SD, yes, I see that’s also an issue for some. But here’s why I don’t think the essays are the tipping point in those cases. Because someone with weak faith often has reasons to be there
otherthan faith. It could be family ties, desire for community support, or just that they like the routine of going to church, but what’s binding them to it at all isn’t faith. It’s something not assailed by the information in the essays. But I grant you that they do point yet again to the fact that the church is very much a human institution. Based on what you say, I think there is case for categorizing commitment in multiple ways — the people who are outwardly committed for social and non-doctrinal, non-faith reasons, and the people who are committed due to faith in doctrines. I suppose I fell in the latter camp. I would not have joined had I not believed everything, and had the church not convinced me it had a divine commission, with an inspired prophet. There is no way I would give away the equivalent of my retirement savings for my whole life unless the church was more than a temporal church like any other church.
Now, life has moved me from being a faithful believer, to a skeptical believer who attends primarily for non-faith/cultural reasons. You might argue that the essays could move people from the faithful camp, to the slightly skeptical camp easier than they can move the cultural Mormons to non-attendees. I could go along with that. The cultural Mormons have already decided faith is not sufficient reason to stay, so they are impervious to articles like the Priesthood Disavowal that have the potential to lessen faith, not the cultural features of our religion. Could we both be on the right track? Not sure, but it’s an interesting model of declining faith — start out faithful, doubt certain aspects, doubt to the point of losing commitment, and then — either stay for non-faith reasons, or stop going.
Orson wrote:DJ, do you have a reference for that Uchtdorf quote? I need it, I need it!
https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/print/ces-devotionals/2013/01/what-is-truth?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/print/ces-devotionals/2013/01/what-is-truth?lang=eng A while back, while trying to make a point about prophet infallibility, I actually asked DW: “What if tomorrow TSM asked all members to move to Moose Lake, Alberta, Canada? Would you go?” 😳 nibbler wrote:A while back, while trying to make a point about prophet infallibility, I actually asked DW: “What if tomorrow TSM asked all members to move to Moose Lake, Alberta, Canada? Would you go?”
😳 Come on nibbler, it isn’t that bad out there! I’m moving only 3 hours from there in a few weeks. Now a call to Utah, might be a tougher one for me. I would have to say no
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
slowlylosingit wrote:nibbler wrote:A while back, while trying to make a point about prophet infallibility, I actually asked DW: “What if tomorrow TSM asked all members to move to Moose Lake, Alberta, Canada? Would you go?”
😳 Come on nibbler, it isn’t that bad out there! I’m moving only 3 hours from there in a few weeks. Now a call to Utah, might be a tougher one for me. I would have to say no
Hey, I picked it because it looked like a place I actually wouldn’t mind moving to. It would be nice until all the mormons started showing up.
Haha. So true! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.