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hawkgrrrl wrote:
doug – if you really read up on this, you would see that the girl in question was not even wearing skinny jeansYes, I understand that one of the girls in question wasn’t violating the new rule, and my wife just bought eight pairs of skinny jeans, so I know all about those, too.
🙂 In other sources I find things such as:
Quote:The department posted a sign that read “No Skinny Jeans,” and turned away several students who were wearing tight-fitting pants last week.
Not having been there, of course I can’t really say if any students were turned away and if so, why. What seems clear is that someone in authority came up with a rule, made a flyer explaining the new rule and exhorting those who might disagree to go pray about it, and posted it in plain view. I am still waiting for someone to explain to me why this would not be the expected and natural outcome of the culture in which that person lives. Please don’t misunderstand me. I am in no way condoning or trying to excuse the behavior of the person who made this, I think, silly rule. I am simply saying that what he did wasentirely consistent with what is taught in church, and explainable within the context of the culture in which he lives. doug wrote:What seems clear is that someone in authority came up with a rule, made a flyer explaining the new rule and exhorting those who might disagree to go pray about it, and posted it in plain view.
A brief digression but I love it when people say “pray about it”. The implication is you know damn well what the right answer is and you better damn well get it. If you got a different answer you either a) didn’t pray right, b) didn’t listen for the right answer c) were deceived by the father of lies, your own prideful drenched in sin and wretched ego, or by the degrading influences of a perverted and fallen world.
Getting back to the topic of the original post, it seems the problem is not the definition of modesty but the definition of immodesty. It seems to mean anything that draws attention to the sexual nature of an individual and by inference suggests an invitation to or an interest in sex/immorality. As long as the naked body is considered sinful then any manner of dress that calls attention to it is going to be sinful. Which is one of the reasons I’m a nudist and why I left the web address earlier to a forum where there’s been a lot of discussion about this. I’m afraid there’s never going to be a resolution to this as long as you’ve got dealers playing without a full deck and their own view of the rules.
I guess even Adam and Eve were nudist “Mormons” at some point — even after they took a monumental step forward with the fig leaf 🙂 GBSmith wrote:A brief digression but I love it when people say “pray about it”. The implication is you know damn well what the right answer is and you better damn well get it. If you got a different answer you either a) didn’t pray right, b) didn’t listen for the right answer c) were deceived by the father of lies, your own prideful drenched in sin and wretched ego, or by the degrading influences of a perverted and fallen world.
I have always taken this to mean “you need to make up your own mind”. It seems to get used when issues aren’t all that critical, the person has given you their advice, and wants to end the conversation. Or, they want to put the decision squarely on your shoulders as its a personal decision.
I used to put a lot of stock in the answers people SAID they received as a result of such prayers. Then, a woman told me she had inspiration we should be married, we got engaged, adn then later she broke it off. I asked about her revelation, and she didn’t seem to concerned about that anymore. I asked a friend how she could just turn her back on revelation that way. His response “that stuff is easy to get out of”. It cheapened ANYONE saying they had inspiration/revelation to do anything after that….since we’re into digressions
Quote:But back to the point of this thread…Here is a modesty situation that a HC friend of mine shared. He was at a regional dance as the resident chaperone. A member had brought a non-member female with her to the dance as friends. The non-member friend had a short skirt on. Throughout the night, different Young Single Adults came running to this HC about this non-member “guest’s” short skirt, and how it didn’t conform to the rules of dress code or modesty –with the underlying expectation he would do something about it.
If you were the HC at the YSA dance, what would you do?
Personally I think preaching modesty in young women to this extreme is more harmful than any trouble caused by wearing a short skirt or sleeveless top. I have seen it in my own daughter. She is obsessed with modesty from the teachings in YW. She tends to feel self conscious and fearful if she violates the prescribed rules in any way. I try to counteract it but peer pressure from the other girls and leaders is hard to overcome. So yes I have a big problem with the way the church teaches modesty and its consequences. It is all so made up with no real substance behind it. Just another example of something that is taken to the extreme because someone in control thinks it is a good idea. Cadence wrote:Personally I think preaching modesty in young women to this extreme is more harmful than any trouble caused by wearing a short skirt or sleeveless top. I have seen it in my own daughter. She is obsessed with modesty from the teachings in YW. She tends to feel self conscious and fearful if she violates the prescribed rules in any way. I try to counteract it but peer pressure from the other girls and leaders is hard to overcome. So yes I have a big problem with the way the church teaches modesty and its consequences. It is all so made up with no real substance behind it. Just another example of something that is taken to the extreme because someone in control thinks it is a good idea.
My daughter is also EXTREMELY conscious of modesty. All the girls wear T-shirts and long shorts as the most revealing attire they adopt in any situation. While I think it makes them look a bit homely and almost boyish at times, I don’t see much wrong with it. I would rather she erred on the side of being too modest than not modest enough. I once taught a group of engineering students a managemetn case, and there was a sexual harrassment case they had to study. The majority of them felt that if a woman wears revealing clothes she is more amenable to a sexual relationship. And this, in my mind, would lead to more offers for sex, more temptation, and more heartbreak than the emphasis on modesty creates (at least in my own limited experience).
In short, I’m glad my daughter values modesty — so far.
Quote:If you were the HC at the YSA dance, what would you do?
Tell them to mind their own business, thank God she was there and learn a little charity, lose their judgmental tendencies and become a little more Christ-like.
Seriously, if it was a young adult activity, I probably would be that blunt. That’s the stuff that really bothers me. With teenagers who still are learning, growing and maturing, I can be more gentle; with a YSA group? I’d probably smite them with the good word of God, as a friend used to say.
Hooray Ray!!! Good answer :clap: :clap: :clap: My HC friend said that they were right — the person was not in harmony with the dress code, but that he would do nothing about it. He felt the right context had to be established for such teaching — and not when a person is experiencing the Church for the first time.
Old-Timer wrote:I think he felt prompted by an emotion, but I don’t think it was the spirit.
😈 Of course, I might be wrong, but it’s been my experience that those who complain the most generally are the ones who . . . notice . . . the most.
I notice. I don’t complain.
😈 I hope that doesn’t mess up your statistics.doubting mom wrote:A friend posted this article
I am thankful for this topic in making me think about modesty differently. I had never considered that there could be any disadvantages. While I agree that the author of the article had more going on than just modesty issues, I appreciate the perspective.
I remember a niece telling my mom she was immodest because when she bent forward to pick up kids or otherwise play with them the back of her shirt would ride up and you could see her garments. My mom responded that she felt it was more important to play with her grandkids (a wise response IMO).
FWIW I think that the principle of modesty is great. Your body is a temple to be loved and cared for – not abused or degraded. But some of that is easily lost in translation as we talk about how long a skirt should be or how many earrings cross the line. Underlying it all, for my kids I want – comfort, acceptance, self-love, respect for self and others, confidence, and assertiveness.
Quote:It would be far better to teach people to be resoponsible for their own thoughts and their own actions and to use their heads in the things they say, do and wear.
Exactly. Why can’t we teach the principles of self worth and not being judgmental. Shouldn’t we be happy to see people who are struggling coming to church events, especially youth?
I’ve said over the pulpit in a Sacrament Meeting talk that one of the best tests of charity among us would be our reaction if a drunk who reeked of alcohol and was carrying a bottle or a scantily-clad prostitute with a cigarette in hand walked into the chapel during the administration of the sacrament. Would we recoil and hope he or she left – or would we immediately think, “Thank God s/he found us!”, get up, put an arm around him or her and escort him or her to our pew? (For many members, the “test” would be an obviously gay couple – and I used that exact example, as well.) Modesty in dress is similar – toward everyone, but especially those who are new to our group. If someone walked into a meeting stark naked, I hope the immediate reaction would be to hand him or her a suit coat, escort him or her to our pew and find a blanket or some other simple covering – in that order.
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