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Time for full disclosure. We were asked to be “group leaders” for our local ARP group (this would be a church service mission). This came out of the blue, we had no understanding of the program other than it existed. We researched the online stuff, talked to the current couple whose time is up, and went to a meeting. I won’t go into detail about the meeting of course, but it was a bit too “Mormony” for my tastes. Being that this is not something we would have chosen to do on our own from a list of church service opportunities, we also don’t have a passion or investment in the program. Frankly I can’t see myself sitting there week after week hearing the same stuff and leading the same 12 lessons over and over. I don’t doubt that it could be effective for those with addictions, and understand as Ray points out that for them listening, relating, and understanding is important. The difference is there I was not part of the group (and would not be as leader, the current leaders made a point of telling us they’re not considered part of the group) and I don’t relate or understand like I do here. We politely declined.
Minyan Man wrote:SamBee wrote:[quote=”DarkJedi”
The problem in our local ARP is that they’ve had junior missionaries sitting in, which is not the best as I have found some less understanding than others. I don’t like that.
What’s a “junior missionary”?
I wanted to distinguish young men from retirees. Calling them elders strikes me as ridiculous sometimes.
I’ve also attended a couple of LDS addiction recovery meetings as an observer from the mental health field. I thought it was okay. The group I attended was pretty small and focused on substance abuse. Apparently there was one guy who’s addiction was porn, but he didn’t say anything. It seemed very loosely organized and the appeal seemed to be the association with like-minded folks rather than the actual program, though some of the older attendees read from the manual and tried to address the ideas discussed in the manual. Obviously, I just got a limited picture. I agree that it’s probably not as helpful to combine all addictions into one meeting, particularly when many of the men reportedly attending now are ones sent their by their bishops due to porn addictions. Like some of you, I don’t believe that most of what we label porn addictions are actually addictions in the mental health sense. In our area, they also offer a porn-recovery help group especially for women whose husbands and/or sons are “addicted”. I’ve wondered what they talk about. I can only imagine, since our area leaders have promoted the idea that porn is “adultery” since Jesus said that to look upon a women lustfully was akin to committing adultery in your heart. We get a little nutty over naked people, in my opinion.
SamBee wrote:P*rn is an addiction, M isn’t in my view.
Why? What exactly are the differences between porn and masturbation that make porn an automatic addiction that don’t apply equally as well to masturbation or reading romance novels for that matter? Also, what exactly is the difference between a genuine addiction and something that people just happen to naturally like? For example, sugar is easily more harmful to more people on average than occasionally viewing porn/nudity ever was due to the real negative physical health effects of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc. so why don’t we ever hear about how everyone supposedly needs to be cured of their sugar “addiction” to the point of expecting complete abstinence for everyone the way we repeatedly hear about porn in the Church? As far as I can tell the main difference is simply the presumption that people shouldn’t be doing this, which is questionable to begin with in the case of porn/nudity whereas it makes more sense in the case of smoking, drugs, etc.
I can certainly see why some people that already think masturbation is alright and perfectly healthy would still think porn is bad, distasteful, etc. but at the same time I think it’s misleading and unfair to call every man that hasn’t completely stopped viewing porn/nudity permanently an “addict” especially if it basically amounts to a few minutes here and there and doesn’t negatively impact their everyday life in any noticeable way. Personally, I see most of the hype about porn “addiction” as pseudoscience that many Church members and other moral crusaders have been spreading largely as yet another form of shaming and scare-tactics to try to browbeat men into submission in this case. As far as the Church sponsored addiction recovery program for porn, I think it will be hard to even get past the first step of traditional 12-step programs in many cases:
Quote:We admitted we were powerless over __—that
our lives had become unmanageable.The problem with this is that for many of these supposed porn “addicts” their lives are not unmanageable at all; they basically continue to go about their business more or less the same way they would if they never looked at porn/nudity and my guess is that the only reason many of them are at these meetings at all is simply because their wife found out about their porn habit and freaked out and/or they made the mistake of confessing this to priesthood leaders. If some of them feel like these support groups are helpful then good for them, but personally I wouldn’t expect to see a very high level of “success” if expecting men to never look at porn/nudity again is the goal (which it currently is for the Church).
Minyan Man wrote:You can hear the same stories over again. You can tell the same stories again. We have to remember where we came from.
It’s easy to forget what it was like. When we forget, then AA becomes a social club instead of a mechanism for recovery.
For me, the important part of the meeting comes afterwards & you talk one on one. Or, you ask questions.
From the outside looking in, it must seem trite or a cliche.For some, that are living it, it is a life line & a hope that tomorrow could be better. (Another cliche)
It is difficult to explain.
I hope you don’t think I meant it that way!😳 I was impressed with how this person finally worked with the program and is – first time in adulthood – sober. I feel like I got a window in on it.And like Ray says, I see similarities to this site and to Sunday church proper.
I reviewed the online material for the ARP. The core belief seems to be that the key to recovery is spiritual. Pray, keep the commandments, go to church & your addiction is minimized or completely goes away. Am I reading this correctly?
At the height of my alcoholism, I was completely away from church. Even though there is a spiritual component to the AA program, I didn’t or wouldn’t consider that God was concerned
about me, my life or my addiction. The spiritual part of the AA program came slowly over time and is still the hardest part for me to apply & live.
Ann, NO, I didn’t think you meant it that way. I agree with Ray’s statement too. On this site we can be as open or anonymous as we want to be. I personally am not ready to “out” myself.
I have told a few people in my ward about my past. I only do that to people I completely know & trust.
Does everyone in the meeting state what their addiction is and talk about it? I skimmed through the thread and didn’t see a definitive answer although I’m leaning towards yes based on replies. In our stake they promote it quite a bit, or used to. They encouraged everyone to attend even if they didn’t have an addiction. Seems like you’d run into people you know and then your secret is out to everyone. My parents teach it in their area, I don’t know much about it though.
Minyan Man wrote:I reviewed the online material for the ARP. The core belief seems to be that the key to recovery is spiritual. Pray, keep the commandments, go to church & your addiction is minimized or completely
goes away. Am I reading this correctly?
That’s exactly what I got out of reading through the stuff as well. The old Primary answers – more prayer, more scripture study, more church. The answer to all your problems.
Minyan Man wrote:At the height of my alcoholism, I was completely away from church. Even though there is a spiritual component to the AA program, I didn’t or wouldn’t consider that God was concerned about me, my life or my addiction. The spiritual part of the AA program came slowly over time and is still the hardest part for me to apply & live.
I don’t have an addiction, but I think it’s clear to regulars here that I don’t believe God intervenes in our lives regularly (or at all actually). That’s why I can’t see myself sitting there week after week listening to that – I don’t believe it, just as I don’t believe the Primary answers above.
unsure wrote:Does everyone in the meeting state what their addiction is and talk about it? I skimmed through the thread and didn’t see a definitive answer although I’m leaning towards yes based on replies.
In our stake they promote it quite a bit, or used to. They encouraged everyone to attend even if they didn’t have an addiction. Seems like you’d run into people you know and then your secret is out to everyone. My parents teach it in their area, I don’t know much about it though.
No, people do not necessarily state their addictions. Sometimes you don’t know what it is. Only one specifically stated his addiction at the meeting I was at. The current leaders told me it does generally come out over time and the majority in this group are porn addicts (the one who stated his addiction was not).
And, yes, I knew everybody in the room except the investigator. They don’t publicly promote it a lot here, but I have heard the “everybody should go” line before with the reasoning that the lessons are great lessons about the atonement. They are, but not necessarily in the same way I understand the atonement. I’ve also heard them invite leaders (bishops and counselors, etc.) which I also don’t get. In my mind part of the point is anonymity, which the manual does discuss. How anonymous is it if your priesthood leader is there and you know everybody?
Unsure, yes, at the meeting I went to they did. DarkJedi wrote:They don’t publicly promote it a lot here, but I have heard the “everybody should go” line before with the reasoning that the lessons are great lessons about the atonement. They are, but not necessarily in the same way I understand the atonement.
What version of the atonement?
In the version I grew up with, you’re not clean until you’ve repented of every sin, and you can’t know whether you’ve truly repented of any of them until you die and don’t have the opportunity to commit sins again (you must forsake them, you see). That version of the atonement weighs believers down with guilt, and IMO would work against the good done by having a support group, slowing change and making them overly dependent on the group.
Treating porn and masturbation solely as addictions (i.e. behavior caused by having done the behavior) and ignoring the causes of the compulsions does
exactly the same thing. Worse, guilt tends to increase compulsive behavior, which itself increases guilt. So I hope they’re not making two mistakes whose effects feed on each other… Argh. We’ve got this
so wrong. Reuben wrote:DarkJedi wrote:They don’t publicly promote it a lot here, but I have heard the “everybody should go” line before with the reasoning that the lessons are great lessons about the atonement. They are, but not necessarily in the same way I understand the atonement.
What version of the atonement?
In the version I grew up with, you’re not clean until you’ve repented of every sin, and you can’t know whether you’ve truly repented of any of them until you die and don’t have the opportunity to commit sins again (you must forsake them, you see). That version of the atonement weighs believers down with guilt, and IMO would work against the good done by having a support group, slowing change and making them overly dependent on the group.
Treating porn and masturbation solely as addictions (i.e. behavior caused by having done the behavior) and ignoring the causes of the compulsions does
exactly the same thing. Worse, guilt tends to increase compulsive behavior, which itself increases guilt. So I hope they’re not making two mistakes whose effects feed on each other… Argh. We’ve got this
so wrong. You can read all the lessons here:
https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/home?lang=enghttps://addictionrecovery.lds.org/home?lang=eng” class=”bbcode_url”> I’m not going to say I disagree with all of it, or even most of it but there are elements I see differently, there are GA quotes I’m not crazy about, and there are scripture references I think are stretched to fit. There are also in comparison few words of the Savior himself. In some lessons there is a heavy emphasis on talking to your bishop, which I also disagree with.
Much of that is just my take. I’m not a believer in God interacting, helping, or answering prayers. It would have been difficult for me to teach some of those concepts and listen to “testimonies” of them over and over week after week. Unlike Sunday School where I can choose what to teach or skim over stuff, if done according to the manual each lesson is read by taking turns around the room (like in fourth grade) – there’s no skipping parts.
I’m not opposed to the program. There are apparently many who find it of great value. Some of the people at the group I attended have been coming for years and have real caring relationships with each other – that was very evident from just that one visit. More orthodox people buy into all it, and that’s fine for them. It’s just not for me.
The reason I live the WoW is not because I think it’s a commandment (I think it’s not, in fact) but because I have several alcoholic and nicotine addicted relatives and I believe I have the predisposition to addiction. However, were I to become addicted I think I would rather attend AA/Friends of Bill W than the church program for a variety of reasons – not the least of which is privacy and confidentiality.
MODERATOR NOTE: Some posts here have been removed because in the opinion of the moderation team they departed from the topic subject and contained graphic descriptions of pornography deemed not appropriate for the forum. The topic of the thread is the ARP and personal experiences and observations with the program.
Discussions of pornography have been held on the forums and are not inappropriate by themselves. One of the better (and lengthy) discussions is here:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6664 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6664 Please keep this thread focused on the topic and if there is a desire to again discuss pornography and its affects on individuals, family, and society you may start a new thread.
I wanted to add a few observations about my experience in investigating and visiting the local ARP group. There is a meeting outline which includes welcome, opening prayer (volunteer), reading of a statement about the purpose of the program, reviewing the Twelve Steps, presentation of the lesson (which includes reading from the manual), participants sharing their recover experiences (including a statement about rules of time limits, not criticizing others, and privacy) a brief closing statement (including another reminder about privacy) and testimony and a closing prayer (volunteer again). All of this done by the group leaders except the sharing part which is led by the facilitator. Our group followed the general outline, except that the sharing was less like a testimony meeting where on person speaks followed by the next without comment and more of a discussion among the group. I knew everyone in the room except the investigator and the missionaries who accompanied him. The missionaries and my wife and I took our turns reading but did not otherwise participate.
The group leaders are church service missionaries for a two year extendable stint and must be temple recommend holders. They run the meeting, welcome newcomers, and encourage participation. Our group leaders told me they see themselves as hosts and neither the group nor they consider them to be part of the group. Neither of them are addicts.
The facilitator must be a member who has overcome an addiction, preferably at least a year “clean.” He or she runs the sharing portion of the meeting and is the first to share, setting the tone in a way similar to the bishopric member opening testimony meeting. They serve from 6 to 24 months (extendable) but are not church service missionaries and do not need to meet any other “worthiness” standards beyond a testimony. The one in our group has been doing it for a long time, has been clean for several years, talked about his addiction (he was the only one to say what his addiction is) and said he also attends AA meetings. He seemed respected and well liked by the group and the group leaders told us he is viewed as a success story.
Members can choose a support person from the group, support people are not assigned. This particular group, which was small, seemed to all support each other but I did hear one participant promise to call another every day because he was having some personal issues.
It is impossible for me to discuss this properly given current conditions. It is one thing to quote from manuals, another thing to see how this operates. Even within this stake we have had several ARP programs which differ greatly in reality and practise. Not all are run by addicts but they shoukd be.
Twelve step programs work for many people – not all – but you will hear far worse than anything that was here.
Also ranking of addictions can prove unhelpful. Many people do not take certain addictions as seriously as others. Heroin is one thing but many people laugh at gambling which can have serious consequences. Cigarettes can be harder to kick than heroin. Even something like fitness/exercise addiction, i.e. too much jogging, weight training etc can have devastating effects on family relations, finances or personal health. Then there are other issues which I am not permitted to talk about.
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