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SamBee wrote:
Not all are run by addicts but they shoukd be.
I agree, for many reasons.
SamBee wrote:Also ranking of addictions can prove unhelpful. Many people do not take certain addictions as seriously as others. Heroin is one thing but many people laugh at gambling which can have serious consequences. Cigarettes can be harder to kick than heroin. Even something like fitness/exercise addiction, i.e. too much jogging, weight training etc can have devastating effects on family relations, finances or personal health. Then there are other issues which I am not permitted to talk about.
I like the model of having separate support groups that each have a more focused approach as opposed to the jack-of-all-addictions model the ARP employs. I see the reasoning behind the approach that ARP uses. It would be difficult for church members to staff lots of individual support groups (not to mention they’d likely get poor attendance) and not knowing why someone is attending a session of ARP is the only anonymity that the program provides. Maybe focused groups would work in areas where there is a high concentration of members. For the rest of us I think it’s better looking for groups outside of the church.
I think the more focused support groups approach does a much better job of pairing people with similar problems and thus providing better support. Even in those focused groups there’s usually some guidelines that tell participants that they should not compare stories – deem one participant’s struggles as trivial when compared to their own experiences… and that’s with people facing the same problems. The issue would only be exacerbated in a group made up of people with a wide spectrum of issues.
Why is it that the LDS church doesn’t have the ARP run by AA or NA? It is my belief that they feel:
1. Addiction is primarily a spiritual problem.
2. The church loses control as to how the program is run.
If they did make that change, it would have the focused approach you’re talking about.
Minyan Man wrote:Why is it that the LDS church doesn’t have the ARP run by AA or NA?
It is my belief that they feel:
1. Addiction is primarily a spiritual problem.
2. The church loses control as to how the program is run.
If they did make that change, it would have the focused approach you’re talking about.
To be fair, both of these are readily available in many areas and some church leaders will direct people to them.
Not everyone who goes to ARP is known to the bishop either.
There is a spiritual aspect to addiction. You would be amazed at how many addicts I have spoken to outside the church who talk about missing something in their lives or that they are searching for something. In the AA, there is reference to a higher power. The more secular ones rationalize God as Group Of Drunks.
Before my comments were censored I happened to mention I personally think the AA program is inspired and does have a spiritual aspect to it. It’s partly why militant atheists hate it and will claim it is unsuccessful despite there being no reliable statistical data due to the anonymous nature of it.
nibbler wrote:I like the model of having separate support groups that each have a more focused approach as opposed to the jack-of-all-addictions model the ARP
I kind of think this is the problem … once you get into these things…it can be so complex, that having some volunteers lead a church led program is only going to have such limited use and application…that at some point…why have the church run it? Does the church have the resources to do it properly? With proper groups to get into enough detail to make it meaningful? Or is ARP so general and at such a high level…people don’t walk away with much? Like when the church puts on a fireside for financial planning because many members in that ward are struggling and putting a burden on the fast offering funds and a leader feels a wide-spread financial planning resource meeting could be helpful…but…in the end…it ends up being too general to be of any good?I get they are trying to reach out as christians to help…but it even professionals are going to struggle with this complex and unknown social problem. Is the church going to be able to help, or does it feel more like some best effort fireside talks on the subject, but if there are serious issues a person has to go get professional help elsewhere?
My question…is ARP worth it for anyone? I have zero experience with it (or addictions) to know much about it. Which is why it is interesting to hear people relate experience about it.
I will check out the link DJ posted.
I’m skeptical. Like most things, I just think life gets too complex, and church only does so much to help you. At some point…you’re on your own to find the resources you need outside of church to deal with real life issues.
Faith is helpful to heal, but doesn’t replace a hospital. Same goes for psychological issues, and I think addictions are in that realm. Leave it to professionals. And, there are different degrees of professionals. I know Family Services has professional therapists…but…I’ve been to them…there are better resources outside the church for that.
A person with slight addictions and wanting support may get slight support from ARP. But if we start bringing in serious addictions into the conversations…I dont’ think ARP is the right doctor for that.
Maybe ARP is more like a neighbor you’re good friends with that is a doctor. They might be willing to look at your injury, give you some tips…but if it is bad…would tell you to go setup an appointment with a doctor office or urgent clinic to get properly evaluated.
Is that impression off-base?
Also…I may be addicted to this website. I seem to come wanna hang out and chat with all of you a ton. 
nibbler wrote:
I like the model of having separate support groups that each have a more focused approach as opposed to the jack-of-all-addictions model the ARP employs. I see the reasoning behind the approach that ARP uses. It would be difficult for church members to staff lots of individual support groups (not to mention they’d likely get poor attendance) and not knowing why someone is attending a session of ARP is the only anonymity that the program provides. Maybe focused groups would work in areas where there is a high concentration of members. For the rest of us I think it’s better looking for groups outside of the church.I think the more focused support groups approach does a much better job of pairing people with similar problems and thus providing better support. Even in those focused groups there’s usually some guidelines that tell participants that they should not compare stories – deem one participant’s struggles as trivial when compared to their own experiences… and that’s with people facing the same problems. The issue would only be exacerbated in a group made up of people with a wide spectrum of issues.
A lot of people in AA etc are what is known as cross-addicted. Almost every AA group I’ve come across has smokers puffing away outside it. Speak to many of them and they have had issues with drugs, co-dependency, gambling etc. There is often an issue with addicts coming off one thing and ending up with another. Some people become addicted to AA itself. This is preferable but it can stop them getting back into life in general.
The other problem is that some addictions are so uncommon that there are often no specific support groups outside very big cities. For example, I have issues with hoarding as well – there are psychological reasons for this, many hoarders have suffered great loss or bereavement at an early age. One woman who came to our ARP had an addiction which was on the face of it, uncommon and harmless. However, it affected her social life, her finances and even her choice of university degree.
The process of coming out of an addiction is surprisingly similar in many cases. Physical dependencies often require medical supervision, but once withdrawal is dealt with, then that’s when it becomes similar to others. Here are a list of things I commonly hear of from addicts of different varieties:
* Cross-addiction.
* An inferiority complex, low self-worth.
* Lying to cover up their problem.
* Impaired social interaction.
* Childhood trauma of some kind.
* Dreams – the addict dreams of the addiction after trying to give it up.
* The addict often stumbles or relapses.
* The need to get away from certain people at least for a while.
* Dissatisfaction with reality/their environment.
* Searching for something to fill an inner void.
FWIW, here is a link to the online training materials for group leaders and facilitators: https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/volunteers/addiction-recovery-program-training?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/volunteers/addiction-recovery-program-training?lang=eng Out here in the hinterlands live training only takes place once a year on a regional basis, although the current couple told us it was offered more frequently at the closest LDS Family Services office, which is a 5 hour one way drive. They said the office also does quarterly phone meetings with group leaders and facilitators where they will answer questions and there is a resource person available to call or email during normal business hours.
I’m sure like all things in the church leadership roulette plays a role and some leaders go exactly by the book “letter of the law” while other do whatever they want and there is everything in between.
SamBee wrote:It’s partly why militant atheists hate it and will claim it is unsuccessful despite there being no reliable statistical data due to the anonymous nature of it.
Heber13 wrote:Faith is helpful to heal, but doesn’t replace a hospital.
I understand that measuring the success rate of AA is challenging for both the supporters and detractors. I read an article that claims that other countries are having much success with medication for alcoholics – but that the political powers that be in the U.S. are against the idea (fix an addict by giving a pill).
For any reading this thread looking for options for themselves or others – check into the medication.
The meetings I attend seem to have a high success rate. Relapses do occur. It is good to hear their stories if & when they come back. We can sometimes take recovery for gratitude. There is also relapses for other diseases. For example, cancer, etc.
When it comes to relapsing with an addiction, we can feel weak, discouraged or guilty. Some people will make you feel like you
didn’t try hard enough. It is my opinion that will power alone has
littleeffect to give a person a quality life. AA doesn’t necessarily work for everyone. If it doesn’t work, we always encourage people to try something else.
It is the best program that works for me.
I also wanted to comment that there are closed meetings for a select groups of people who afraid of being outed.
For example, there are special closed meetings for police, etc that are high profile types. The meetings I go to have a good cross section
of people in them. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, farmers, judges, students, stockbrokers, accountants, housewives. You would be very surprised.
There are some women I know, who from all outward appearances look like a typical RS President.
The Mayor of our town used to attend my group. Addiction is no respecter of persons. It can get anyone & everyone.
Quote:I also wanted to comment that there are closed meetings for a select groups of people who afraid of being outed.
For example, there are special closed meetings for police, etc that are high profile types. The meetings I go to have a good cross section
of people in them. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, farmers, judges, students, stockbrokers, accountants, housewives. You would be very surprised.
There are some women I know, who from all outward appearances look like a typical RS President.
The Mayor of our town used to attend my group. Addiction is no respecter of persons. It can get anyone & everyone.
Those were the ones I sat in as a corporate health management representative. Addiction really isn’t a respecter of persons. Religiosity has little to do with it. Smart, rich, religious people battle addiction. For me I think the church really should hold proper private addiction recovery meetings. I think the churches key fear is the undefinable God portion. I understand but I don’t think it serves the church to use lay people and some material.
Quote:Also…I may be addicted to this website. I seem to come wanna hang out and chat with all of you a ton.
Heber my grandmother had a soap opera addiction. She couldn’t go a day with out watching. When she visited we took turns being her designated viewing buddy. Cause that’s what friends are for. – Don’t worry man, I will be here for you. Promise.
Heber13 wrote:Faith is helpful to heal, but doesn’t replace a hospital.
I think this is a misunderstanding of what I meant.
Firstly, in my experience AA and ARP encourage people to seek out medical treatment if necessary. They don’t discourage it or aim to displace it. In fact, AA operates within some medical facilities. At a decent sized group, people will tell you confidentially where you can go for it.
Secondly, if you go to AA on a regular basis you will meet people who’ve been in and out of rehab programs like bunnies with a warren. They are great for getting chemicals out of somebody’s system or for healing some damage but unfortunately when someone leaves it is partly in their hands whether they want to start again. A person has to develop the will to want to stop permanently and drugs and hospitalization won’t do that alone.
Thirdly, some medical interventions end up continuing the addiction in some form. Heroin addicts get given methadone in clinics in some parts of the world, and get addicted to it instead.
Lastly, the medical profession is better with physical addictions such as drugs or drink than gambling etc.
The other issue with medical intervention is that the professionals are often excellent at studying addiction as a problem but do not have personal experience of the matter. In AA, you meet people who’ve lived it – this adds a more human touch and is more relatable. The doctors are doing it as a job, and go back home every night. In the twelve step you get to make friends with people.
So in short I would recommend people to get medical help if they can and also a twelve step program.
SamBee said: Quote:if you go to AA on a regular basis you will meet people who’ve been in and out of rehab programs like bunnies with a warren. They are great for getting chemicals out of somebody’s system or for healing some damage but unfortunately when someone leaves it is partly in their hands whether they want to start again. A person has to develop the will to want to stop permanently and drugs and hospitalization won’t do that alone.
“like bunnies with a warren.” I never heard that expression before.My own experience with rehab & treatment centers are limited. I went to a 30 day inpatient treatment center that integrated the AA program. (That was 26+ years ago) When you were finished, there was after care which consisted of counselling sessions one or twice a week. Patients had to make a commitment to attend regular AA meetings & declare where their “home” group was. The meeting place where you regularly attend. In the US there are fewer & fewer inpatient treatment facilities. This is because insurance programs usually cover only outpatient treatment programs. And the cost is prohibitive for out of pocket coverage.
As I’m thinking about this: when a patient has a particular type of cancer that recurs a year or two after diagnosis & treatment, do we refer to them as
Quote:being in and out of treatment like bunnies with a warren?
Or, do we treat them with the compassion, empathy & dignity they deserve?
Minyan Man wrote:They are closer to me than my own family members who are not alcoholics.
This. The one saving grace of the local ARP couple is that the wife is a recovering alcoholic of ~35 years, and the husband admits he has no clue what it was like for her beyond her descriptions. (They were married after her recovery.)
Going to someone who has never had a real physical addiction makes about as much sense as asking your bishop what a period is supposed to feel like. Even if he’s raised a dozen daughters he’s never felt one.
I started attending LDS ARP meetings a little over three years ago for a porn addiction. While I believe that not all porn users are addicted, I certainly was. My first meeting was at a men only, porn addiction meeting. I didn’t like it and was embarrassed to be there. I almost didn’t come back, but the missionary that ran the meeting introduced himself to me afterward and told me to come back. I still remember his piercing eyes as he issued that invitation.
I came back to the next meeting and regularly attended for about six months. Those meetings were a source of strength for me and I gleaned a lot of knowledge that was instrumental in me successfully working through the twelve steps.
The steps worked! I have been completely free of porn & masturbation since my first meeting. I have scarcely entertained a lustful thought in the last three years and feel completely free from those chains. The meetings were one of many tools I used to find lasting change, and I was grateful for them.
I still attend meetings occasionally to share what I’ve learned with others.
NightSG wrote:Going to someone who has never had a real physical addiction makes about as much sense as asking your bishop what a period is supposed to feel like. Even if he’s raised a dozen daughters he’s never felt one.
When I was in a treatment program, my councillor was a former Minister, not an alcoholic, who had family members & congregation members who were. He knew exactly what it was like. My first meeting with him & he asked me “why do you drink so much?” I gave him a long story about my life & the terrible things I experienced. After he patiently listened to me he said, “Mike there is only one reason why you drink as much as you do: you’re an alcoholic.” In telling him my long story, I was trying to justify why I drank. My hope was, he would say, “you have a terrible life & deserve to use alcohol to help you cope”. “Goodbye & good luck”.
It is in AA meetings that you develop friendships because of the common problems & struggles. In the process of sharing solutions, you can develop trust. On that level, I agree with you.
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