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NightSC, I understand what many people have believed and desired. “Marriage” after death, however, has not been an official doctrine. Quote:we need to stop haggling over the details of the afterlife and focus on doing good here.
A-freaking-men.
SilentDawning wrote:b) Comfort when family members die that there may be a together family in the eternities.
My faith crisis was precipitated by the stillbirth of my daughter. It was devastating that it happened. This could result in me being even more fervent and dedicated to the church. I remember a woman who had lost twins telling me that there was no way that she was going to forgo raising them in the millennium. “They need their mother!” Church service/adherence for her then became a way to serve/not let down her deceased children.
Unfortunately, in the case of stillbirths the church does not know if they count as living souls, if they will be resurrected, or if they will be with families in the eternities. I was in a position to decide for myself if she would be part of our eternal family or not. Regardless of my decision she would not have any ordinances or church records performed for her. It was a very disorienting place to be. The church seems to be so declarative and certain about so many things and now I just go with my gut?!?! For a time I wanted to write the COB and ask the prophet to seek revelation on this subject. I wanted someone to tell me what to do in order to be with her again.
It is almost like I can bind my stillborn daughter to us with the force of my desire and love – just because I say so. Does that really work? And If this individual girl gets to the CK and to be bound to her family without any kind of sealing ceremony or paperwork, then why would it be a hard and fast requirement for the rest of us?
I eventually arrived at a belief in eternal families based on love and relationship. How essential the church authority is to ratify those most basic relationships remains a big question mark in my mind. I assume that it is all symbolic of the desires of our heart.
NightSG wrote:DarkJedi wrote:There is no going back to Pooh Corner, even though I’d love that for eternity
Suit yourself. I’m sure I’d get tired of spending eternity facepalming with one hand and smacking Piglet in the head with the other for making me facepalm.
I was thinking more along the lines of Christopher Robin and counting all the bees in the hive and chasing all the clouds from the sky – Pooh and the gang are ancillary and symbolic. Those days of counting bees and chasing clouds were the best time on earth – and they are fleeting and gone. That’s the way it’s meant to be, though, and it’s why I don’t really understand the eternal families thing. I don’t think there is anyone to count bees or chase clouds with in heaven.
Roy wrote:
I eventually arrived at a belief in eternal families based on love and relationship. How essential the church authority is to ratify those most basic relationships remains a big question mark in my mind. I assume that it is all symbolic of the desires of our heart.This is where I am right now. Further, even if a couple, or family is sealed together in the eternities, there are members of the family who may not WANT to be together forever. So, the sealing is not relevant from a day-to-day perspective if the fundamentals — love and a desire to be together — are not present. Love, and mutual caring are fundamentals of an eternal relationship. Perhaps the temple ceremony is symbolic of those kinds of relationships, and the possibilities for eternity when people treat each other in Christlike ways.
I wrote the following back in 2013. It addresses how I feel, fundamentally, about temple marriage: “
Temple Sealing as a Shadow of Practical Sealing” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2013/02/temple-sealing-as-shadow-of-practical.html The following was written in 2011:
“
Celestial Marriage is Not Exclusive to Mormons” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2011/11/celestial-marriage-is-not-exclusive-to.html This entire thread reminded me of this episode of the Simpsons: If you think back to temple ordainances, all is done in preparation. All is merely potential. And we all sealed together? Everything we have states that we are one family as all of humanity. It is human nature to attempt to divide it up into smaller VIP pieces. We want special VIP seating or status for early admission. We want the special VIP family eternal plan. We want to know that we are especially loved before God because we chose a particular belief system. We want belief and simple ordinances to be the easy way.
When we are told that God loves us in an extraordinary manner, that statement means EACH of us. ALL of God’s children. He loves us each in an extraordinary manner. I think he hopes that humanity can get to a point wherein they love each other in that same extraordinary way.
SilentDawning wrote:a) Some women believe that if their husband is not saved in the CK, then it will hurt them — living as an angel etcetera…or not allowed at the highest level. I am not sure this is theological, but my wife has said it to me, and so have others said it in Sacrament meeting. As a result, some women will divorce their husbands (and vice-versa) if the husbands falter in their church commitment. So, that covenant can actually hurt marriages that might have otherwise survived with reasonable success.
Personally, I would rather we believed all family members will be together independent of the temple — with God recognizing the family relationships created when spirits enter the bodies of children at any point after conception. And that salvation and togetherness was simply based on living a “good life”.
I can completely relate to this. I’m living this right now. Once I started to talk about my FC with my wife, she felt like I was no longer worthy, and that she would be giving up her opportunity to get into the CK if she stayed with me. Even after the bishop, and her dad, encouraged her to stay, she left because of the belief that if I’m not “worthy” to get in because of my questions, then we’ll just be split up in the afterlife and she’ll be given to somebody who is worthy to be with her. So, why not just end things now, so she spend the rest of her earth life with somebody who she can go to the temple with.
I think the idea of eternal marriage is one of the most beautiful ideas in existence. But, I believe that tying eternal marriage to the temple can become one of the most divisive and twisted doctrines that our church pushes. I don’t recognize the need for the temple, and I can’t believe that God would require us to make extra promises and perform secret (call it sacred if you want) rituals in order to be with our families for eternity. I believe in a loving and merciful God, who will look for opportunities to create happiness in the afterlife. I can’t picture that God saying, “Uh-oh! You lived a good life, but didn’t get married or sealed in the temple. Go get your husband/wife. I’ve got somebody else for him/her to be with for eternity. You can go ahead and take the elevator down one level.”
🙄 Holy Cow wrote:SilentDawning wrote:a) Some women believe that if their husband is not saved in the CK, then it will hurt them — living as an angel etcetera…or not allowed at the highest level. I am not sure this is theological, but my wife has said it to me, and so have others said it in Sacrament meeting. As a result, some women will divorce their husbands (and vice-versa) if the husbands falter in their church commitment. So, that covenant can actually hurt marriages that might have otherwise survived with reasonable success.
Personally, I would rather we believed all family members will be together independent of the temple — with God recognizing the family relationships created when spirits enter the bodies of children at any point after conception. And that salvation and togetherness was simply based on living a “good life”.
I can completely relate to this. I’m living this right now. Once I started to talk about my FC with my wife, she felt like I was no longer worthy, and that she would be giving up her opportunity to get into the CK if she stayed with me.
I can also relate, although my DW and I are still together. But she is so disappointed in me and I do feel (from her perspective), that my unbelief is keeping her out of the CK. If I were to go inactive or leave the church, my marriage would be over.
Holy Cow wrote:I think the idea of eternal marriage is one of the most beautiful ideas in existence. But, I believe that tying eternal marriage to the temple can become one of the most divisive and twisted doctrines that our church pushes. I don’t recognize the need for the temple, and I can’t believe that God would require us to make extra promises and perform secret (call it sacred if you want) rituals in order to be with our families for eternity. I believe in a loving and merciful God, who will look for opportunities to create happiness in the afterlife. I can’t picture that God saying, “Uh-oh! You lived a good life, but didn’t get married or sealed in the temple. Go get your husband/wife. I’ve got somebody else for him/her to be with for eternity. You can go ahead and take the elevator down one level.”
🙄 Well said! I completely agree!
Wow. I must have missed that memo some way along the path. I cannot imagine leaving a spouse over beliefs. I believe that we are not competing for the CK, and to drop my team member because they are no longer an asset towards my competitive goal? That’s just not right. But then, I like the tear-jerker full-box-of-Kleenex happy ending stories in which people stop and give assistance and lose the race in order to care for people.
I love your comment Amateur Parent. It very interesting to me that in a gospel that is supposed to be about love and service, one up-manship and becoming “better” than everyone else becomes the goal. It’s all about me and my blessings. Holy Cow…I’m so sorry that happened to you. That is just not right and it’s a shame that religion can cause a person to throw a loved one under the bus rather than try to help them back up and support them.
Always Thinking wrote:What do you all think about the promise that marriage in the temple means your family will be together forever?
Do you think people not married in the temple won’t be together?
What do you think will happen to us and our families if we died now?
What do you choose to believe?
These are excellent questions. I wish I had convincing answers. When I investigated the Church, this is one of the issues that appealed to me.
The Methodist church didn’t know. For me, I choose to believe. Beyond that, I’m not sure about the details.
When I do FH in FamilySearch.org, I feel connections with relatives, I never knew. (and some I did know.)
When I talk with my wife, or children or play with the Grandchildren, I hope it’s true.
Anyone that speculates what happens beyond that, is just speculating.
We have a sure knowledge on this side of the veil.
We exercise faith about what happens on the other side.
That’s the way the program was designed.
I hate that you’re going through that Holy Cow. I know a few local people going through a similar experience, it’s not pretty. Unfortunately I think that the way we teach being saved in the CK can set people up to arrive at those sorts of conclusions. It’s a group effort, “Never permit yourself to become a weak link in the chain of your generations.” As if the whole thing will come crashing down with just one sinner… even though all of us are sinners.
If you’ll humor me in preaching to the choir:
When members talk about a wayward child I’ve heard
manyparents talk about how the bonds of the sealing itself are so sacred and powerful that they will overcome whatever it is that a child has done to ensure that the child will be with them in the CK. I hear it framed like that all the time. When we shift over to the spousal relationship some of that sentiment still carries over but I think there’s more of a temptation for people to arrive at the conclusion that they should shed themselves of the “dead weight” that is putting their salvation at risk. We’ve seen it before but I want to do my small part in flooding the earth this:
1 Corinthians 7:13-14 wrote:And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband:
Which is underscoring that the same unconditional love that we feel towards our children, a love strong enough to say things like “the sealing power alone will ensure that they are with me in heaven”, can exist in our spousal relationships as well. IMO that’s what is at the heart of the issue, conditional love.
I get the feeling that if our focus is to ensure our own salvation then we’re really loosing sight of what it means to be saved. Was Jesus saved by focusing on his own eternal well-being or did he save himself by lifting up others?
Matthew 10:39 wrote:He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
So yeah, I’m preaching to the choir. I’m a little cynical in thinking that pointing these types of things out to someone that has already made up their minds likely isn’t going to get them to reconsider their decision. I would like to see these types of things being discussed more at church to hopefully help people not arrive at the conclusion that they should divorce their spouse because of belief.
Minyan Man wrote:When I do FH in FamilySearch.org, I feel connections with relatives, I never knew. (and some I did know.)
At times this is something I’ve struggled with. I’m fortunate to have known 3 of my great grandparents. I didn’t have a deep relationship with them because I was a child when they passed, but I remember visiting them. Further out beyond them I have no relationship with my ancestors, they are strangers.
I can get behind revolving familial bonds. Take a snapshot of any one generation and they will have strong bonds with their parents and children, (depending on the relationship during life) a somewhat lesser bond with grandparents and grandchildren, a significantly diminished bond with the great-grands, and after that we’re into complete stranger territory.
I want my great x 5 grandparents to be able to enjoy their familial bonds with their children and parents but I’m not too concerned myself with being with my great x 4, great x 5, and great x 6 grandparents, I don’t know them. Besides, if life is any indication I’ll be hanging with friends more than I’ll be hanging with parents during the eternities. Family are the people you are stuck with because frankly, who else would deal with their crap.
Holy Cow wrote:Even after the bishop, and her dad, encouraged her to stay, she left because of the belief that if I’m not “worthy” to get in because of my questions, then we’ll just be split up in the afterlife and she’ll be given to somebody who is worthy to be with her. So, why not just end things now, so she spend the rest of her earth life with somebody who she can go to the temple with.
I am so very sorry HC. One of the more heated discussions that I had in the church was about this sentiment. I was so indignant that marriage partners could be swapped out like interchangeable cogs – as though a lifetime of shared experiences is of no value. In my heart of hearts “becoming one” must mean more than that.
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