Testimony

[Anonymous]

DA, fwiw, try to separate how you are feeling from absolutes about everything and everyone. I think your tendency to extrapolate your own experience as the norm for all (or as the norm for the entire Church) – and your tendency to deny the legitimacy of other’s perspectives – gets in the way of your attempts to find a measure of peace within the LDS Church. I also think you’ll understand what I mean if you think about it for a while.

Just remember, a different black and white is just that – a different black and white that doesn’t accept nuance, shades of gray, differing perspectives, etc. The basic, fundamental nature of, “I’m right and you’re wrong,” doesn’t change just because the focus and/or content of the position is different.

For example, you said:

Quote:

However, like many other Church doctrines and policies it has been taken to extremes to the point that having a “testimony” of what seems like 1001 different things is now considered an expected requirement for full-fellowship and even salvation. At the same time, most honest doubts have been effectively suppressed to the point that in many cases it is far easier for members to just keep quiet about any legitimate questions or concerns or even pretend to believe all this rather than to ever openly admit any doubts to active members.

For you, and many others, I’m sure that’s true. It’s not for me – and many others. If it’s true for you inside the LDS Church, I’m confident it will be true for you in any other faith tradition. So tackle you and your perspective – or, more precisely, your reaction to your perspective. There’s not a thing (and I would add a basic expletive, if it wouldn’t offend some people) you can do about anything but your own prespective and reaction.

To quote the Book of Mormon, work on acting and not being acted upon. Right now, I believe you are allowing too much to act upon you – reacting, instead of acting independently.

[Anonymous]

Brian Johnston wrote:

…I totally get what you are saying, but this is the same process that happens all the time throughout history. Why didn’t the Catholic Church just ‘fess up about the earth revolving around the sun? Why did they continue saying the earth was the center of the universe for hundreds of years? Galileo was an individual that “evolved” faster than his tribe could tolerate. It would be nice if the whole world moved in sync with our views, but it just doesn’t.

SilentDawning wrote:

While I agree with DA on this….think about the alternatives. You could be Catholic — but it has its own historical skeletons and wild claims — such as the sale of indulgences, the totalitarian approach of the Inquisition, the Crusades and pogroms, as well as its denial of scientific facts — like earth revolving around the sun.

…Plus, the doctrines of historical Christianity are in some ways harder to accept than the LDS doctrines — such as salvation by faith alone (a free lunch in my view), the fact that all people who die without accepting Christ, including babies, are going straight to hell, and their treatment of other faiths like Mormons…

Old-Timer wrote:

DA, fwiw, try to separate how you are feeling from absolutes about everything and everyone. I think your tendency to extrapolate your own experience as the norm for all …and your tendency to deny the legitimacy of other’s perspectives…The basic, fundamental nature of, “I’m right and you’re wrong,” doesn’t change just because the focus and/or content of the position is different.

…For you, and many others, I’m sure that’s true. It’s not for me – and many others. If it’s true for you inside the LDS Church, I’m confident it will be true for you in any other faith tradition. So tackle you and your perspective – or, more precisely, your reaction to your perspective…

I think the Catholic Church tried to deny the fact that the earth isn’t the center of the universe simply because they could. At that time, they had the political power to enforce their views, so they did. I think Mormonism is similar in the way the leaders have thrown their weight around with the attitude that most active members will believe and do whatever they say simply because they said so.

The LDS Church has eliminated competition to some extent by creating a separate subculture of doting followers that are “in the world but not of the world.” As a result they’ve been able to get away with some questionable doctrines and demands without losing too many members so far but this is starting to change with the internet, more books about Mormon history, etc.

I used to have a lot of disrespect for most other Christian churches that I was vaguely familiar with, especially on my mission. My impression was that their followers didn’t know just how wrong they were and that they were generally lacking in faith and other Christian virtues. Basically their level of commitment seemed very weak compared to active LDS Church members. But now some of them don’t look so bad anymore.

What looked like a weakness before now looks like a strength. For example, the Pope can say something stupid and many practicing Catholics couldn’t care less. Some Baptists will preach vehemently against alcohol and pass legal restrictions on its sale almost exactly like Mormon politicians in Utah but it seems like there are many churchgoing Baptists that still drink anyway.

Personally, I like the idea of being able to listen to the spiel of various ministers/clergy without feeling like I need to agree with everything they say the way Mormons typically agree with Church leaders and expect other members to do the same. Too much faith in fallible men basically sets people up for disappointment. At this point I am perfectly content with my own beliefs and have no problem with others believing whatever they want either. What disturbs my peace is simply Church members that basically expect me to believe exactly the same thing they do down to the smallest details and if not then I’m an evil apostate and I think this general attitude is encouraged by the testimony doctrine as currently implemented.

[Anonymous]

Ray, I get what you are saying and agree with the premise, but, and a big BUTT at that, it’s much easier said than done.

To be honest, I’m starting to wonder if The DA and I grew up in the same ward. because what he is saying, is pretty well what I have also experience my entire life within the LDS church. I mean, these ideas that get thrown out are great, and I appreciate the whole “pure mormonism” and these other strategies of finding ways to make the LDS church work “even with all the warts and all”, but that doesn’t change the fact that these cultural issues and problems are very REAL, and they make it almost impossible for “the heathens” like myself to have any viable part of the culture – whether we want to or not. I mean, you read my experience from church this month. In my branch, it appears I am NOT allowed to doubt. It appears I’m not allowed to “believe” – apparently I have “know.” “Only those who have perfect faith, or have no doubts will be saved…” At best it seems like I will have to just sit in the back row and find ways to minimize the insanity every week. That is at best as far as I can fathom things and slow rate of change within church. Is this the way it is in every ward. No. But it certainly IS the way it is in mine, and apparently many others as well. I honest to god just feel like I have work my butt off just to hang on being LDS.

As I read some of the others positive responses and experiences, I just shake my head, because on my planet, the LDS church, it’s culture and the majority of it’s members just doesn’t work like that or allow for that kind of diversity… Perhaps, maybe, it all does give me some hope that on different planets, the LDS church is much more evolved than it is on mine. So, I don’t mean to be a downer, keep the stories coming — if nothing else I can at least live vicariously through the rest of you who seem to have some “normal” people in your wards. (The DA being the exception )

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

…What looked like a weakness before now looks like a strength. For example, the Pope can say something stupid and many practicing Catholics couldn’t care less. Some Baptists will preach vehemently against alcohol and pass legal restrictions on its sale almost exactly like Mormon politicians in Utah but it seems like there are many churchgoing Baptists that still drink anyway.

Personally, I like the idea of being able to listen to the spiel of various ministers/clergy without feeling like I need to agree with everything they say the way Mormons typically agree with Church leaders and expect other members to do the same. Too much faith in fallible men basically sets people up for disappointment. At this point I am perfectly content with my own beliefs and have no problem with others believing whatever they want either. What disturbs my peace is simply Church members that basically expect me to believe exactly the same thing they do down to the smallest details and if not then I’m an evil apostate and I think this general attitude is encouraged by the testimony doctrine as currently implemented.

AMEN.

[Anonymous]

Hey, I just read a GREAT article by Orson Scott Card in the Mormon Times dealing with this EXACT topic. I highly recommend it. here is the link. http://www.mormontimes.com/article/17178/Orson-Scott-Card-Exploring-faith-and-knowledge?s_cid=search_queue&utm_source=search_queue” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.mormontimes.com/article/17178/Orson-Scott-Card-Exploring-faith-and-knowledge?s_cid=search_queue&utm_source=search_queue

I posted the entire article, but it might get cut by the admins — don’t know all the rules and policies here yet.

[MOD: yup, clipping the full text due to potential copyright infringement. Great article though! -Brian]

EXPLORING FAITH AND KNOWLEDGE – BY Orson Scott Card

It has become almost a requirement that when we bear our testimonies, we don’t say, “I believe,” but rather, “I know.”

It is as if we had decided, collectively, that faith were not enough.

Read the rest at the link above… [mod]

[Anonymous]

First, great article. I don’t always agree with OSC, but I really like this one – and it is published in Mormon Times, as part of Deseret News.

Lots of people say, “The Church is the same anywhere you go.” I can’t argue if it is phrased, “The organizational framework is the same anywhere you go” – with size differences of congregations being the only real variable. However, “The Church” on a very practical level for most members isn’t the organizational structure; it’s the actions and attitudes of the members who make up the personality of the organizational structure. That means “The Church” is radically different for many members.

I get that; I really do. It’s one of the main reasons I distinguish between “The Church” (both global and local), “Mormonism”, “pure Mormonism”, “Mormon culture”, etc. There really is a big difference between each of them, and when they get conflated, hope can disappear for those where reality it far away from the ideal. The ideal doesn’t exist, unfortunately – but it does get approxmiated in more places than people realize who haven’t experienced it “on their own (local) planet”. I talk often about my last two wards, but I’ve experienced congregations that are far from the ideal. I’ve seen a ward split and crippled by racism; I’ve seen multi-generational family issues create contention and destroy unity; I’ve seen a new ward created out of parts of three wards – and socio-economic differences cause serious issues for a few years; etc. I’ve seen a tiny branch dissolved – and was assigned to tell everyone about it directly after speaking about resurrection and hope on Easter Sunday. I know it’s hard when reality is far from the ideal, but I also know how wonderful it is when the ideal actually is visible in the real.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

…you said:

Quote:

However, like many other Church doctrines and policies it has been taken to extremes to the point that having a “testimony” of what seems like 1001 different things is now considered an expected requirement for full-fellowship and even salvation. At the same time, most honest doubts have been effectively suppressed to the point that in many cases it is far easier for members to just keep quiet about any legitimate questions or concerns or even pretend to believe all this rather than to ever openly admit any doubts to active members.

For you, and many others, I’m sure that’s true. It’s not for me – and many others. If it’s true for you inside the LDS Church, I’m confident it will be true for you in any other faith tradition…

cwald wrote:

To be honest, I’m starting to wonder if The DA and I grew up in the same ward. because what he is saying, is pretty well what I have also experience my entire life within the LDS church…that doesn’t change the fact that these cultural issues and problems are very REAL, and they make it almost impossible for “the heathens” like myself to have any viable part of the culture – whether we want to or not…on my planet, the LDS church, it’s culture and the majority of it’s members just doesn’t work like that or allow for that kind of diversity… Perhaps, maybe, it all does give me some hope that on different planets, the LDS church is much more evolved than it is on mine. So, I don’t mean to be a downer, keep the stories coming — if nothing else I can at least live vicariously through the rest of you who seem to have some “normal” people in your wards. (The DA being the exception).

Old-Timer wrote:

…Lots of people say, “The Church is the same anywhere you go.” …However, “The Church” on a very practical level for most members isn’t the organizational structure; it’s the actions and attitudes of the members who make up the personality of the organizational structure. That means “The Church” is radically different for many members.

Sure some members are nicer than others but looking at my neighbors, co-workers, college classmates, mission companions, etc. that all grew up in completely different wards, counties, and even different states or countries in some cases it looks to me like Mormon culture is very similar no matter where you go. Of course you will have a different and typically more positive experience if you are content to try to blend in and give the outward appearance that you agree with most traditional Mormon doctrines such as unquestioning obedience to prophets and apostles, one trueness, Joseph Smith’s restoration of the gospel, the Book of Mormon, temples, priesthood, the WoW, etc.

You don’t necessarily have to believe all these things the same way the Church teaches to fit in fairly well as long as you keep quiet about any disagreements. However, if active members surrounded by TBMs that already expect them to believe all this all of a sudden openly disagree with some of these doctrines and policies then I fully expect a solid majority to have a similar experience to me (or worse). Basically the reality of the situation is that openly disagreeing with some of these doctrines is quite simply not acceptable for active members as far as most other active members are concerned.

[Anonymous]

Okay DA, I basically agree with you, and I guess that most folks on this board would probably agree with the premise as well. The cultural of the church in general has flaws, which prohibits “heathens” like ourselves from fitting in. I guess my question is, “so, now what?” Seriously. What the hell do we do now? Is there a place in the church for us? There will be some who will talk about these “fantasy worlds” that just don’t exist on my planet – the church is what it is, and wishing or talking about how it should be doesn’t change the facts and reality for us that this quote is absolutely real in our experience,

Quote:

…typically more positive experience if you are content to try to blend in and give the outward appearance that you agree with most traditional Mormon doctrines such as unquestioning obedience to prophets and apostles, one trueness, Joseph Smith’s restoration of the gospel, the Book of Mormon, temples, priesthood, the WoW, etc…Basically the reality of the situation is that openly disagreeing with some of these doctrines is quite simply not acceptable for active members as far as most other active members are concerned

. Sure, you and I, and the other few normal people on the planet who visit this site “get it”, but you are correct in my opinion, for the most part the church membership does not. It might make us feel better to vent a little here on this site, but I don’t see us changing the entire culture of the church overnight. Yes, if and when enough of the membership finally get’s fed up with all the nuisances and cultural “doctrines,” things may change in hundred years, but what do we do in the mean time?

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

Okay DA, I basically agree with you, and I guess that most folks on this board would probably agree with the premise as well. The cultural of the church in general has flaws, which prohibits “heathens” like ourselves from fitting in. I guess my question is, “so, now what?” Seriously. What the hell do we do now? Is there a place in the church for us? There will be some who will talk about these “fantasy worlds” that just don’t exist on my planet – the church is what it is, and wishing or talking about how it should be doesn’t change the facts and reality for us that this quote is absolutely real in our experience,

…Sure, you and I, and the other few normal people on the planet who visit this site “get it”, but you are correct in my opinion, for the most part the church membership does not. It might make us feel better to vent a little here on this site, but I don’t see us changing the entire culture of the church overnight. Yes, if and when enough of the membership finally get’s fed up with all the nuisances and cultural “doctrines,” things may change in hundred years, but what do we do in the mean time?

You’re right, the Mormon culture and doctrines are probably not going to change much any time soon so all I can do is try to get along with any members I have to deal with as well as possible without letting them bother me too much and not be afraid to say no if they expect me to do something I’m not comfortable with. I don’t want to leave the Church but if they push me too much I don’t know if there will be any other choice.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

all I can do is try to get along with any members I have to deal with as well as possible without letting them bother me too much and not be afraid to say no if they expect me to do something I’m not comfortable with.

Amen, Brother Advocate.

I also would add, “Let go of your unrealistic expectations of them.”

Food for thought:

How can you expect them to accept you for who you are – and love you regardless, if you aren’t willing to accept them for who they are – and love them regardless? If you are setting yourself apart from them in your mind, how can you expect them not to do the same to you in their own minds?

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

… I don’t want to leave the Church but if they push me too much I don’t know if there will be any other choice.

A year ago or so, I was at the point where I felt like I had NO CHOICE but to leave the church. It was killing me – eating me up inside. I kind of made that point known, and the local leadership backed off somewhat. I’m in an unique situation, where the branch NEEDS me to survive and function, and so they “tolerate” me some, and I’m able to call my “own shots” so to speak on some of the expectations. However, you probably don’t have that luxury, and if your experience is like mine, most members of the church would just as well cut you lose as have a doubting Thomas in the midst.

However, i have seen some changes recently, I admit, and I think SD made the point, that once folks like us get “outed,” many of the members who base their testimony on the gospel, and not the church, will change/adapt their view and try to make us faltering and “less active” folks feel more welcome. ????

I will be honest here too, I got to the point, and still am somewhat, that it was not worth it to me to “live the lie.” it was too painful and stressful. I had to make that conscience choice that I am who I am – and I’m not pretending to be something I’m not. My family pretty broke off all meaningful communication, and I have not had visitors or visited them for almost two years now. Yes, I have gotten better at how approach my faith crisis with other LDS members, but they know, and I know, and as much as I dislike it, I guess I’m becoming content at being a back-row “second class citizen” within the framework of the church. AND I’m finding some peace.

I guess Ray is right, I will try to accept their belief system and hope they will eventually except mine — and hope that I can cope with the insanity in the meantime, and that I don’t let them push me out.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

There will be some who will talk about these “fantasy worlds” that just don’t exist on my planet – the church is what it is, and wishing or talking about how it should be doesn’t change the facts and reality for us that this quote is absolutely real in our experience

I felt this deserved some responding to, since I think some might consider people like myself as creating a fantasy world about the church to survive in it. I was thinking about this, wondering if that’s what I’m doing. For example, I now view the Book of Mormon as a true book in many ways, although i’m not sure about its origins. Does believing its true make this a fantasy world simply because I believe in its truthfulness for reasons other than those espoused by the common herd?

I’m of the opinion that it’s not a fantasy world, because all things, good, bad, or Mormon can be looked at a variety of ways. You can look at food storage as the Church’s self-serving policy so the members don’t use the fasting offering fund. You can also look at it as a way of strengthening the members’ peace and self-reliance. So, to some extent all things are simply a matter of perspective. And perspective is a matter of choice.

Also, many of my opinions now are based on stark realities in the Church. I wear a white shirt now out of respect for the YOung Men leaders trying to help the young men dress properly for sacrament, not because I think it’s the “uniform of the priesthood”. I don’t argue points of doctrine at Church out of respect for the culture. The culture is real, and so is my desire to be respectful of the culture also real. The Young Men’s leaders efforts are real, their commitment to white shirts and ties is real, and so is my desire to be supportive of them. My disagreement with white shirts and ties as the only way to represent the priesthood, or dress at Church, is also real, but its eclipsed by other real perspectives and reasons.

My lack of belief in the completely inspired decision-making in the Church at all levels is also real. So is the Church culture that the calls are from inspiration real. And my willingness now to refuse callings that aren’t right for me now will also be very real and meaningful to me. So will my acceptance of certain calls….should they come.

Quote:

…typically more positive experience if you are content to try to blend in and give the outward appearance that you agree with most traditional Mormon doctrines such as unquestioning obedience to prophets and apostles, one trueness, Joseph Smith’s restoration of the gospel, the Book of Mormon, temples, priesthood, the WoW, etc…Basically the reality of the situation is that openly disagreeing with some of these doctrines is quite simply not acceptable for active members as far as most other active members are concerned

Sure, you and I, and the other few normal people on the planet who visit this site “get it”, but you are correct in my opinion, for the most part the church membership does not. It might make us feel better to vent a little here on this site, but I don’t see us changing the entire culture of the church overnight. Yes, if and when enough of the membership finally get’s fed up with all the nuisances and cultural “doctrines,” things may change in hundred years, but what do we do in the mean time?

I think its a Buddhist idea that you should only try to change yourself. You’re right. The Church ain’t going to change in the ways we’d like it to. For example, it irks me to no end the way leaders act when the Church’s temporal assets are at Stake, or when they want you to stay in a calling. At times, the organization can seem no different in its management than a Fortune 500 company.

I can’t change that. But I CAN decide the extent to which I’ll participate in that leadership. I can also control how long I will stay in a calling. I made myself miserable a year ago when they wouldn’t release me expeditiously, gave me a handshake, and then kept me floundering for another 2 months before the official release. Maddening.

IN the future, I won’t be accepting calls that have to go through layers of management. Ward callings only, or lightweight Stake callings. Leadership only if I don’t have to administer home teaching or get involved in frustrating, non-results-producing activities which I perceive to be a waste of time. I have control over those things, and much more. That’s where the peace lies I think — in focusing on those things you can control in your Church experience to reduce the angst. I do believe there are many ways to do this….

Also, there was a comment above that the only way to survive is to keep your mouth shut (it was said more diplomatically than that). My answer is that it’s true in all organizations that have a culture — whether it’s religious or not. If you want to get fired from your job, you can start openly disagreeing with every cultural norm or pet project/program of the managers. I don’t see it as much different when being a member of the Church……

I think because the Church is voluntary we expect it somehow to be more malleable to our personal interests, when most organizations are not that way.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

…I felt this deserved some responding to, since I think some might consider people like myself as creating a fantasy world about the church to survive in it. I was thinking about this, wondering if that’s what I’m doing…

I don’t think so. I believe you missed my point entirely. I was talking about comments I hear on these forum in reference to church leaders who “do the right thing, even if it means going against the cultural view, or the CHI, such as Ray mentioned — that a BP/SP can extend a calling to a person without a TR, even though the CHI specifically says they can not. And the comments about folks in PM or SS who invite and are comfortable with doctrinal diversity and dissenting opinions. And the comments about “pure mormonism” vs cultural mormonism. Perhaps I sounded harsh – didn’t mean to. It just seems like a fantasy world to me, because I have never seen these kind of things in my experience in the church. I wish it was the case, I believe it should be the case, I have faith that in 100 years it may be case — but right now, it is not. It is a fantasy to me. I have not seen it or experienced these kind of “pure mormonism” moments that some of the folks on this board refer to. I don’t question that others have had better experiences in the church than I have.

I see what you, SD, talked about in your last post as good coping strategies to deal with your personal issues you have within the church. That is not a fantasy. That is real, and I applaud you. I have developed some of my own – but that doesn’t change reality. For me to call home and have my family cheerfully pick up the phone and say something like, “we don’t care how you feel about the church or if you have a different interpretations of the JS story and the WoW, nor do we care if you don’t put much credence in the temple — we believe in the concept of pure mormonism and were happy that you have found some peace and we would just like to sit down and just be a family like we used to be…” — is a fantasy.

Do you understand the difference? I was not jabbing you in the eye.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Also, there was a comment above that the only way to survive is to keep your mouth shut (it was said more diplomatically than that). My answer is that it’s true in all organizations that have a culture — whether it’s religious or not. If you want to get fired from your job, you can start openly disagreeing with every cultural norm or pet project/program of the managers. I don’t see it as much different when being a member of the Church……

Yes, I have heard this a few times in these forums. I would respectfully disagree with this premise. The church is OUR tribe. It is not the Prophet’s tribe, or the apostle tribe, or the Stake President’s tribe or Bishop’s tribe, or the Relief Society Presidents tribe. It is OUR tribe. I love the tribe – and we have a right to be part of it — and if there are things that we feel are wrong or need to be change, than why shouldn’t we be able to speak up and say our peace without threat of being ostracize and subjected to disciplinary action?

And here is the other problem, it is different than a corporation, because the church claims to hold YOUR salvation in their hands. In the LDS culture, one must go through their local bishop/SP to enter the celestial kingdom. So one could reasonably walk away from a job they didn’t like, and they could find a new one and all their friends and family would be happy as hell for them. That is NOT going to happen when one reasonably walks away from the church. It is different — at least it is in my opinion.

That all being said — I have and continue to learn that I if I WANT to remain LDS, I do have to just keep my mouth shut. That is why I visit this site regularly.

[Anonymous]

Dont’ worry, cwald. We have a pretty broad open-mouth policy here. 🙄

[Author]

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