- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Heber13 wrote:
That also makes me think of the Atonement, and it being infinite. Wouldn’t you think, just like the excommunicated member can repent and work back into the church, wouldn’t you think the 1/3 cast out from the first estate, could be given a chance to return…although it wouldn’t be easy…it would be possible somehow, sometime, in some way? Why not, right? What would the Lord have to lose if they really wanted to return?
That’s funny, that thought had occurred to me while I was thinking about the subject but I didn’t feel inclined to mention it. I’m glad you did, I was starting to feel I was “out there” with those thoughts.
Heber13 wrote:Sometimes in church people like to feel better about ourselves…we chose right…and those poor souls who didn’t keep their first estate are damned…and I’m glad I’m not them. But clearly the Lord’s teachings of the laborers in the vineyard warns us against thinking wages have to be fair based on how
we thinkit should be fair to us. Right? Again, an interesting point to bring up… for me personally. I’ve
alwayshad issue with understanding Matthew 20:1-16. I don’t want to derail the thread so in short words… I understand the general principle the parable is trying to convey about it not mattering whenthe conversion takes place but that the conversion takes place, etc. … but the more worldly side of me is always left with a “welp householder, good luck getting some workers to come into work tomorrow morning” taste in my mouth, which is a clear indicator to me that I haven’t truly learned the principle. Perhaps a conversation left for a more focused, dedicated thread. InquiringMind wrote:
And why would God create billions of spirit children with the knowledge that they would spend eternity in misery?
I think that God is a lot less compassionate and infinitely loving than what we tell kids in Primary.
Joni wrote:InquiringMind wrote:
And why would God create billions of spirit children with the knowledge that they would spend eternity in misery?
I think that God is a lot less compassionate and infinitely loving than what we tell kids in Primary.
Me, too.
DarkJedi wrote:Joni wrote:InquiringMind wrote:
And why would God create billions of spirit children with the knowledge that they would spend eternity in misery?
I think that God is a lot less compassionate and infinitely loving than what we tell kids in Primary.
Me, too.
I think Paul the Apostle might agree with you too. He talks about how it is God’s perogative to create one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. He is the creator, it is His decision. I just disagree with Paul.
Regarding sacrifices being willing, I don’t think this is the case. Rather the sacrificer has to be willing. In the case of Jesus, his father could be seen as sacrificer, or Jesus himself, depending on your POV. The reason I say this is, because I don’t think the numerous sheep,
goats, bulls, doves etc had much say in Jewish sacrifices, and weren’t probably willing!
The Muslims have interesting views on this. They refer to Djinn, which is obviously borrowed from the same ancient Greek and Latin, which gives us “genius” and “genius loci”. We know this word too in the form “genie” from some of the early translations of the Arabian Nights. Djinn can possess people, live in dust storms (cf “dust devil”), work
for magicians (cf Aladdin) and be trapped, haunt houses and cause all
sorts of mischief (poltergeist activity). Some are quite powerful.
But more interestingly, not all djinn are evil in Islam. Mohammed
actually converted some to Islam, and they are mentioned in various
terms in the Koran.
Djinn are bodyless spirits, but unlike the 1/3 seem to belong to a
different type of Creation and our not our brothers or sisters.
My FEEDBACK to LDS.org Gospel Principles, Chapter 11:18 September 2017 The first sentence of this chapter reads, “Every person who comes to earth depends on Jesus Christ to fulfill the promise He made in heaven to be our Savior.” These seem to be important words, carefully chosen. However, I find serious disagreement about it among knowledgable members.
Every= none excluded person= individual, self-aware intelligence, embodied or unembodied. Much broader than “soul” comes= arrives from elsewhere. Much broader than “born” earth= this probationary state and later Savior= Redeemer, the One who makes it possible for the dead to live again and return to our Father in heaven’s kingdom. This seminal sentence seems carefully crafted to include the 1/3 who rebelled and were cast out to earth with Satan to prove themselves and be judged at the last day. Jude 1:6, DC 19:2-7, 138:58-59, 29:41, HC 4:425-426, etc. support that reading.
If, in fact, being cast down to earth was final Judgement and the 1/3 are guilty of the unpardonable sin, doomed to Outer Darkness forever, as many of the saints believe (I used to), please change the sentence. I can find nothing in the scriptures that supports that, but nothing that clearly describes the more joyous divine nature and destiny: ultimate redemption for repentant spirits of the 1/3.
Until I can find clear direction to the contrary, I will continue to teach the simple reading of that sentence: that the 1/3 will come to the Final Judgement, and can be saved if they repent and obey the ordinances of the house of God.
Just to reiterate what I said earlier, at the time and for the people when this was written, a third part meant “an unspecified minority”. (There was a difference between “a third part” and “two third parts”.) Therefore, whether it is literal or figurative, all it says is that fewer spirits followed Lucifer than accepted Jehovah. (Also, interestingly, there were few instances where one-half were used. In the entire Old Testament, “one half” occurs only four times – and “one-half” doesn’t appear at all. The ancient Biblical numerology simply wasn’t as simple or black-and-white as we tend to assume.)
Even from a more orthodox view than I actually have, I take it to mean that, in the end, there will be a smaller percent in Outer Darkness, the Telestial Kingdom, and the Terrestrial Kingdom combined (if the kingdoms are ultimate conditions, which I don’t believe them to be) than there will be in the Celestial Kingdom – that, in the end, two third parts (the large, obvious majority) will accept Christ and be rewarded fully for it.
Hi Jonathan and welcome, It seems to me that we are talking about spirits that existed in the pre-mortal life and postulating about their eternal destiny in the post mortal life. My experience here has led me to believe that both pre-mortal and post-mortal realms are highly speculative and that not much is known about them. Therefore, whatever you wish to believe about either that is uplifting and meaningful to your daily walk in this life is a valid perspective.
The problem I see you getting into with most traditional believers is that the spirits that followed Satan have no body. Are you suggesting that a spirit can be saved into a kingdom of Glory with no body? I do not know that it could not happen. Interesting concept.
Roy wrote:It seems to me that we are talking about spirits that existed in the pre-mortal life and postulating about their eternal destiny in the post mortal life. My experience here has led me to believe that both pre-mortal and post-mortal realms are highly speculative and that not much is known about them. Therefore, whatever you wish to believe about either that is uplifting and meaningful to your daily walk in this life is a valid perspective.
This is where I am also. Hence I don’t spend much time joining in the speculation, although such things can be fun to fantasize about sometimes. I don’t think anyone – including any prophet ancient or modern – really knows the true big picture of it all.
Roy wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:Joni wrote:I think that God is a lot less compassionate and infinitely loving than what we tell kids in Primary.
Me, too.
I think Paul the Apostle might agree with you too. He talks about how it is God’s perogative to create one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. He is the creator, it is His decision. I just disagree with Paul.
My thinking has evolved considerably on this subject. I still don’t think what we teach Primary is totally correct, but I have come to believe God is far more merciful and full of grace than most members believe or understand.
Here’s an odd one. We know dead people can receive proxy baptism – how about demons?! We know a lot of people are near the edge of damnation, so what if there are demons who narrowly missed salvation? Odd idea and the notion seems to be none of them can find a way back.
SamBee wrote:We know a lot of people are near the edge of damnation, so what if there are demons who narrowly missed salvation? Odd idea and the notion seems to be none of them can find a way back.
It seems to make less sense to be a “punishment” that one choice means a soul can never find their way back or have a 2nd estate, or 3rd estate but all is lost by one choice at one time.
It makes more sense that some choose to not want to come follow the Savior as part of God’s plan they way it is being taught in some scriptures.
What if the 1/3 hosts of heaven are not wallowing in pity and remorse and so angry they are trying to steal bodies of others? What if they are more like inactive members of the church…they don’t have temple recommends to get into the temples…but…they really don’t care. They have their own lives/existence and find meaning and purpose in other ways? Members call them “lost” and try to reach out and save them or invite them back…but many are just not interested…not really lost, just not interested in doing it the way church members do it.
Members sometimes assume that following Christ as a member of the mormon church is the ONLY way to find any happiness. Ask the billions of non-church members…many would say they are doing just fine, and are not angry or bitter towards the church and it’s members. In fact, most don’t really know the church exists…or don’t care. And they have their own path to enlightenment and peace and happiness, and doing just fine.
And…it seems that inactive members can always join the church if they want to, or repent and come back, if they want to. They are welcome whenever they choose to. For a church with teachings to make things so fair to everyone (non-infant baptism, proxy ordinance work, raising children in the millennium, degrees of glory based on knowledgeable choices, spirit prison as a temporary state of mind, excommunication but repentance allowed, etc etc etc.) …why would we believe in a teaching that a war in heaven damned 1/3 of the souls with no 2nd chance?
I view 1/3 of the hosts of heaven similarly to those who aren’t interested in the church. Some just don’t find a compelling reason to join. It is their choice. That is more likely than some punishment preventing them to from doing something they know they want but can’t because the blew it.
Either that … or … there really aren’t 1/3 of hosts of heaven out there not coming to earth…and it is all a symbolic story to convey some meanings and teachings.
Lots of possibilities. We really don’t know how it works. We just use stories to help us choose to be good while alive on this earth.
The official line is – they’ve had it and the lot of them are railing against humanity and are completely blind. However, thanks to LDS, it seems those who were never born could potentially have a get out card.
Given the choice of horrible eternal punishment or accepting a proxy baptism, some such entities might actually want out of the satanic military after years of conscription!
Now there’s a thing we never talk about. However, we’d need to know their names. I can’t see this happening, but still. If humans vary in goodness, maybe some demons are less bad, or perhaps they get thrown in some kind of demonic hoosegow for possible traitors!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.