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Quote:
“The prophet will never lead the Church astray.”
We have had this discussion previously, since this quote has come up in multiple threads. The links for the threads that deal with it most extensively are:
“Prophets and Revelation” (
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=229&hilit=astray “The Church Needs a Prophet. (?) (
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=317&start=10&hilit=astray Fwiw, I personally would recommend reading these threads before launching a totally new discussion, since there are some really good comments in them – but that’s just how I always react, so feel free to ignore me if you want. I’m used to it.
🙂 Discuss.Old-Timer wrote:Quote:“The prophet will
neverlead the Church astray.” We have had this discussion previously, since this quote has come up in multiple threads.
Discuss.I think this is actually the most popular of all the so-called fundamentals or at least the main one I remember hearing repeatedly in church. It’s not quite as bold and over-the-top as some of the others because apologists could still argue that prophets are only human and can make mistakes but as far as the general direction of the Church that God supposedly won’t let it get too far off course.
The general idea is that the current prophet will supposedly tell us the main idea of what we really need to know for our own personal salvation but not necessarily everything we want to know about some unessential questions or concerns. Of course, I disagree with this assertion as well because as far as I’m concerned polygamy and the priesthood ban based on race were glaring examples of LDS prophets leading the Church astray and leaving it astray way too long.
“The Prophet will never lead us astray.” Yup. We will do that all by ourself, when we are ready to fly
😈 There’s a marvelous adventure out there when we are finally ready to stray out into the open world and explore.
If the prophet is fallible, and just a man doing the best he can and what he thinks is right – THERE IS ALWAYS the possibility that he will be led astray. If the Prophet always speaks the will of god – than no, I guess he will never lead us astray, but that puts him near perfect as Christ – and that obviously is not the case with our modern day prophets. I’m sure all of them would agree. This is a dangerous concept. It’s even more dangerous because we all know how MANY LDS members will over-interpret it. The membership has a bad habit of misinterpreting every syllable that comes from a GA’s mouth.
Benson’s commentary dealing with #4 is not good. This is the whole, “even if the prophet tells you to do something, and it is wrong, you should do it anyway.” quote. Did he mean it to be dangerous? No. But this kind of teaching and concept is why the Catholic church is in so much trouble, and I’m sure it happens in the the LDS church as well. It also happens in society at large —- “the authority tells me to do something I don’t feel comfortable with, but since they are in charge and respected, and in the case of religion, speaking for god – I guess I better just do what they say because they know better than I do…”
This quote has appeared on here before, but I will cite again for this example,
Quote:The Catholic church teaches that the Pope is infallible and always speaks for God, yet none of them will believe it. The Mormon church teaches that the Prophet is fallible, and sometimes speak as a man, yet none of them will believe it.
Apparently, Benson is one of the latter – those LDS members who don’t believe their own doctrine.
I don’t care too much about this one either because ultimately, I will decide if I will follow the prophet. If I an led astray, it’s because I chose to. Also, perhaps this 4th fundamental points to the fact that the prophet acts in concert with the Q12 and the First Presidency counselors, which provides a series of checks and balances? Does the prophet have absolute authority and power in practice?
Most dangerous and misleading doctrine in the LDS church. Without going into to much of a rant I find it very creepy that this kind of trust is expected when so much could be on the line. So far this has not been an issue in my lifetime but you never know when we could get a prophet that gets some mental disorder and starts spouting of crazy stuff and to many members interpret it as God speaking. Maybe there are enough safe guards in place with the other brethren to prevent this but who knows. Besides I think it is fairly obvious that prophets have let us astray many times. How many early saints died because they were told all is well and God will protect you. Let’s not forget the exit clause that Brigham Young added to this little contract: “The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray
if you are found doing your duty.” So, if we ARE lead astray, it’s clearly our own fault?!
:wtf: I think when I go home tonight, I’m going to hug and kiss my beautiful children and tell them that I would never leave them as long as they do their chores every day. But, if I don’t come back from work someday – it will clearly be their fault.
:thumbdown: But, to try to put a positive spin on this, I think I’ll substitute “Prophet” for “Gospel of Jesus Christ.”
“The Gospel of Jesus Christ will never lead the Church astray.” – There, fixed it.
:clap: SilentDawning wrote:I don’t care too much about this one either because ultimately,
I will decide if I will follow the prophet. If I an led astray, it’s because I chose to.
Sure it’s not that hard for us to ignore some of this but what about all the TBMs that buy into this idea? That’s why I care; it really bothers me to see the hard-line authoritarian direction that the Church has taken. This talk was so bad that some anti-Mormon websites were posting the entire thing without any commentary because it already speaks for itself. That’s why I was surprised when I later heard that 2 different GAs had tried to re-emphasize it in the last conference.
To be honest I can’t believe their audacity to expect members to believe some of the points in this talk. Sure the JS and Book of Mormon story are fantastic but at least they give some people hope to believe in magic to the point that they can feel good about it even if it’s not true but all this hype about doing whatever the current prophet says no matter what has way too much potential for abuse and disappointment not to mention that there are obvious problems or counter-examples to discredit almost every single point in this talk.
Of course you are right, DA. And you are right too, everybody else. This stuff matters, and it hurts, and it leads people astray, and they want it. Old-Timer wrote:Quote:“The prophet will never lead the Church astray.”
This is true by definition. Next.
doug wrote:Old-Timer wrote:Quote:“The prophet will never lead the Church astray.”
This is true by definition. Next.
Good point!
Tom Haws wrote:… This stuff matters, and it hurts, and it leads people astray,
and they want it. Yeah, you are EXACTLY right. Damnit.
I see this as clearly a paradoxical point of LDS teachings. We are taught the prophet is human and therefore fallible – yet somehow incapable of leading the church as a whole down the wrong path. Lets break that down a little: Today we can see some of the past teachings and changes as possibly being a little “off track” for a while. Take your pick: priesthood ban, BY’s teaching of Adam-God, John Taylor professing the plural-marriage command would NEVER be rescinded, etc. So in the strictest sense, the church ‘has’ been ‘astray’, at least in a limited absolutist way.
If we require the two positions to meld, what do we come up with? A paradoxical solution. What can we find in the heart of this paradox? That is the million dollar question, I would love to hear other inputs.
One possibility is that these “detours” are not outside the divine purpose of the church. Could it be that the church – as a tool to help us gain knowledge and experience while on the earth – is working exactly the way it is supposed to? The same way that so many other churches work? BECAUSE of this paradox?
“When the pupil is ready the teacher will appear” -or- When the pupil is ready he will realize the teacher has already been at his side. ?? Okay I’m nuts… carry on!
There are times when I wish we could see directly into the mind of a prophet or apostle. And see what he is REALLY thinking about his apostleship or prophetship. To really know if he actually saw Christ or even converses with him. What people say and do publicly may well be different than what goes on in their native thinking…. Orson wrote:…One possibility is that these “detours” are not outside the divine purpose of the church. Could it be that the church – as a tool to help us gain knowledge and experience while on the earth – is working exactly the way it is supposed to? The same way that so many other churches work?
That is one hell of a mental gymnastic Orson. I suppose it IS possible – but not if the LDS church is “the one true church on the face of the earth.” and/or the “church is perfect, but the people aren’t.” The church can’t have it both ways. I know they want to – but they can’t. Of course, US stayldsers
can, because most of us here don’t believe in those phrases and have an entirely different perspective of what “truth” and the purpose of the church is all about. So in principle for this discussion, yes, I suppose it is possible. But is certainly cannot be used as an apologetic approach from a TBM standpoint – trying to defend the church as “God’s kingdom on earth, restoration of all things, one true church with the only priesthood power to save souls” etc etc. It doesn’t work – it doesn’t make sense, and the pieces don’t fit. Paradox. I think it can only be accepted as a possibilty, if one truly believes the last sentence I quoted of “
The same way that so many other churches work.” We are taught that is not a possibility, they have no power to save – and I’m guessing most of our LDS leaders believe it is not a possibility either. The Mormon way or the highway…
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