The Beginning of the End?

[Anonymous]

So I posted some of this last night with questions but I don’t see it today so either I didn’t hit the submit key or it was deleted but I didn’t get a message so I’m posting a trimmed down version again because two things here really make me think differently than what the intention of this letter is. First I remember reading through the entire D&C a few years ago (actually book on tape during my lengthy commute) and continuously got the impression the saints were being warned the end was near, as in soon, in their day. When I asked a few members about it they either had never noticed or responded with “I don’t know” which I accept more that “it doesn’t mean anything”. So is it right for a mission leader to teach us now that “the end is near” prophecy is being fulfilled?

Also, always believed that “seeing eye to eye” meant understanding each other, no?

Am I numb to this rally cry? Am I just blind?

Matthew 24:14 – “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

Do you remember what happened on June 23rd? That was the big missionary meeting. … this is what bro Xxxxxx from the missionary department said..that day marked the Beginning of the end, just like the scripture says. Because that meeting was when the whole world was opened for missionary work!! Then the end will come…

Mosiah 16:1 – And now, it came to pass that after Abinadi had spoken these words he stretched forth his hand and said: The time shall come when all shall see the salvation of the Lord; when every nation, kindred, tongue, and people shall see eye to eye and shall confess before God that his judgments are just.

What is the significance of that verse? Every nation shall SEE EYE TO EYE. How can us here…and people in Europe see eye to eye?? i will tell you. SKYPE is how we will see eye to eye…they were not only teaching people in their area they were teaching people in Europe, Astonia, Russia. One of our zone leaders taught a girl in Russia via skype last week. They saw EYE TO EYE.

[Anonymous]

Kipper wrote:

I remember reading through the entire D&C a few years ago (actually book on tape during my lengthy commute) and continuously got the impression the saints were being warned the end was near, as in soon, in their day. When I asked a few members about it they either had never noticed or responded with “I don’t know” which I accept more that “it doesn’t mean anything”. So is it right for a mission leader to teach us now that “the end is near” prophecy is being fulfilled?

You are right, this has been taught continuously since the 1830’s. That much is easy to see by studying church history. When Joseph said if he lived to a specific age he would see the Lord come members took that seriously. Each generation have felt the second coming would come in their life — or at least in their children’s lifetime. Today I see the message downplayed by some top leadership compared to previous generations, but there is a big portion of the membership still thriving on the idea.

[Anonymous]

My view of such statements as not that the end of the world is near, but instead, for each of us, end is truly near (and may be one misstep in front of a bus away). And even if we don’t do that, most of us will only live typically 80 years. That is not a very long time in the scheme of things, so when I think about this – the words of Alma (and others) spring to mind:

Alma 12:24

Quote:

And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

[Anonymous]

It’s not just a Mormon or modern belief. It is obvious in the Old and New Testaments, as well as in the Book of Mormon and lots of non-Christian texts, as well. People all throughout history have thought their time was so wicked that the world would be destroyed. We (modern Christians, not just Mormons) have reinterpreted Biblical warnings about “the last days” to be about our time, but they weren’t seen that way when they were written and spoken back in the day. At that time, the warnings weren’t about a long-future time; they were about the immediate future.

As to the question about seeing eye to eye, there are a number of prophecies and general theological statements that become extremely interesting when viewed in terms of modern technology. We now can conceptualize and accept the possibility of the creation of life completely outside of traditional sexual intercourse; we now can conceptualize and accept the possibility of being so inter-connected and aware that it is possible to see and know everything that happens around the world – and, by extension, eventually, throughout all creation; we now can conceptualize and accept the possibility of lots of “godly” things that were dismissed as unknowable and mysterious only a relatively short time ago, much less hundreds or thousands of years ago.

I’m going to say this carefully, but we, as “normal humans”, now are closer in some ways to how God has been described in ancient scriptures – and that is both an exhilarating and frightening thing. For example, it’s one thing to fight like animals, unaware of the world at large and with little effect on it, but it’s another thing entirely to fight like mythological gods, with the literal power to exterminate the entire species (and more) while understanding it is being done.

I don’t believe this is the beginning of the end – but I believe we now have more power to cause the end than humans ever have possessed. In that regard, I understand modern millennial prophecies and beliefs well enough not to ridicule and dismiss them out-of-hand.

I also agree with Tobin that it can be useful to understand that our own earthly end is near – but that reading is based on a recognition that classic end-of-the-world prophecies have not been accurate for thousands of years. It’s a productive repackaging of the statements, if you will, so I have no problem whatsoever with it and have used it on occasion, but it still is a repackaging.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

It’s not just a Mormon or modern belief. It is obvious in the Old and New Testaments, as well as in the Book of Mormon and lots of non-Christian texts, as well. People all throughout history have thought their time was so wicked that the world would be destroyed. We (modern Christians, not just Mormons) have reinterpreted Biblical warnings about “the last days” to be about our time, but they weren’t seen that way when they were written and spoken back in the day. At that time, the warnings weren’t about a long-future time; they were about the immediate future.

Yes, the difference is that we Mormons have 15 Prophets, Seers and Revelators, and you would think that they could get it right about when the end of the world is. But they are just as clueless as the rest of the Christian world. So, if a prophet can’t tell us when the “last days” are, who can? (BTW, BKP said it’s not in our life time, so get an education…..)

[Anonymous]

Sheldon wrote:

Old-Timer wrote:

It’s not just a Mormon or modern belief. It is obvious in the Old and New Testaments, as well as in the Book of Mormon and lots of non-Christian texts, as well. People all throughout history have thought their time was so wicked that the world would be destroyed. We (modern Christians, not just Mormons) have reinterpreted Biblical warnings about “the last days” to be about our time, but they weren’t seen that way when they were written and spoken back in the day. At that time, the warnings weren’t about a long-future time; they were about the immediate future.

Yes, the difference is that we Mormons have 15 Prophets, Seers and Revelators, and you would think that they could get it right about when the end of the world is. But they are just as clueless as the rest of the Christian world. So, if a prophet can’t tell us when the “last days” are, who can? (BTW, BKP said it’s not in our life time, so get an education…..)

I remember this, in my ward as a child in the 60’s we were all under the impression that our generation would be when the end would come. Now we were too young to listen to GA’s during General Conference so we were being told that locally. I don’t recall the lessons but I do remember the leaders and my own parents giving us that impression. Where was that coming from? GA’s I think. D & C was clear to me that the end was near in the 1800’s. I don’t want to gloss over Ray’s reply but I need to study it a little better, I just don’t have the time (at work) right now. I do think after I read it again a few more times I’ll get some understanding from it, as I always do. Thanks Ray.

I stiffen up when I read letters like the one I quoted from because I don’t like to be scared into action or from another perspective rallied into action by propaganda, if that is what it is. Our impressionable youth are falling in line(ie the letter). On the other hand, maybe I need to fall in line.

Getting an education seems to be directed to the youth. My goals of getting my first college degree in my 50’s were trumped by my callings…”God know you better than you know yourself” I was told. Note to self: stop here kipper, your emotions are kicking in.

[Anonymous]

It was quite the hobby for us missionaries in my mission when I served over 20 years ago to study church leader comments, scriptures and look for signs and we even put together timelines and predictions of the likely end. Of course, we came up with Y2K…it was logical. The exact date I had in my journal was May 2003, for many reasons we came up with.

I think there is some good to have some urgency to keep us on our toes, and keep us looking for Christ. I have just applied that lesson differently now at my age, and feel like looking for the coming of Christ means something different than actually when He is coming to Missouri. To look for Christ is still important.

[Anonymous]

Sheldon, if we are going to dismiss our own leaders for not getting it right, we need to dismiss everyone who has made such statements, including Jesus, of Nazareth, and the early Christian leaders – since they also said the exact same things. I’ve said for a long time that the central issue when it comes to lots of things is NOT being Mormon; rather, it’s being Christian. There is absolutely nothing in Mormonism that is harder to handle than what is in generic Christianity – and this is a great example of that.

When it comes to “the end times”, my own standard is, “No man knoweth the time” – so I can chalk up everything else as generalized messages about preparing for the end of the world, whether that be my own life or the literal end of human existence on this earth. Thus, in some important ways, it’s a lot easier to walk my own path than to force myself to walk a path as a contortionist. Other people might see me as being engaged in mental gymnastics, but, in reality, I’m walling upright on a path where I don’t have to be a gymnast. It is legitimately within the arena of Mormonism, and it is as a fully active LDS member, but it is my own “way”.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

There is absolutely nothing in Mormonism that is harder to handle than what is in generic Christianity – and this is a great example of that.

Yes, I agree. But the fact is that Mormon’s hold themselves up to be the “one true church”, so we should have more than just “generic Christians”, but we don’t. Our prophets provide no better or worse than anybody else’s. Where does that leave us?

[Anonymous]

Sheldon wrote:

Old-Timer wrote:

There is absolutely nothing in Mormonism that is harder to handle than what is in generic Christianity – and this is a great example of that.

Yes, I agree. But the fact is that Mormon’s hold themselves up to be the “one true church”, so we should have more than just “generic Christians”, but we don’t. Our prophets provide no better or worse than anybody else’s. Where does that leave us?

I thought the “one true church” didn’t claim to be the only one with truth. More along the lines of keys and authority.

[Anonymous]

Sheldon wrote:

Old-Timer wrote:

There is absolutely nothing in Mormonism that is harder to handle than what is in generic Christianity – and this is a great example of that.

Yes, I agree. But the fact is that Mormon’s hold themselves up to be the “one true church”, so we should have more than just “generic Christians”, but we don’t. Our prophets provide no better or worse than anybody else’s. Where does that leave us?

I’ll wade in here with a different view (and the one I have of the LDS Church). I do not believe it is the “one true church”. I view such claims as complete hogwash. In my view, the LDS Church is a man-made organization and I believe its history and the mistakes that have been made by the LDS Church render that blatantly obvious to even the most casual of observers. The reason I attend the LDS Church (despite my view it is man-made organization) is because of the association with like-minded believers. And it gives me an opportunity to serve others as well.

I believe if you are looking for the “one true church” or Church of God or Kingdom of God, you would be far wiser to look where the Lord said it was:

Luke 17:21

Quote:

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Tobin. Many of us here feel similarly, even if we phrase things differently from each other.

And, yes, the official claim is NOT that we have all truth and others have none. I know too many members don’t understand that . . .

[Author]

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