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I can’t even stand the smell, so there’s no temptation whatsoever for me. Makes it a bit easier, methinks.
I guess the only thing that’s made me a little uneasy about this is what else is it going to be easy for him to blow off and how do you help him put in place the internal set of standards so he’ll self regulate. Quote:My 13 1/2 year old boy snuck a cup of coffee on me last night in the hotel while I was out watching the daughter in district basketball tournament.I chuckled this morning as I cleaned up the evidence and washed out the coffee pot. I asked him as we were driving home if he liked his coffee. He was shocked and scared, and said, “I don’t know why people make such a big deal about some of these stupid rules we have. What’s the big deal anyway?”
Once you decide that your dad, the bishop, the prophet, etc. is blowing smoke/can’t be believed/trusted/followed, how do you decide what’s ok? When my step daughter was busted for smoking dope in broad daylight in a park, her response was pretty much the same, “what’s the big deal anyway?” Just wondering.
Interesting point GB, and a valid concern. Here is how I feel about it. GBSmith wrote:…Once you decide
that your dad,the bishop, the prophet, etc. is blowing smoke/can’t be believed/trusted/followed, how do you decide what’s ok? When my step daughter was busted for smoking dope in broad daylight in a park, her response was pretty much the same, “what’s the big deal anyway?” Just wondering. The WoW, as we practice and teach today, is WRONG! It is doing more damage in a lot of cases, IMO, than good. I don’t think coffee or tea are a big deal, and by making them so, we are setting up some kids for failure. I hope my kid doesn’t get the impression that
his dad is blowing smoke.I don’t think coffee, tea or alcohol in moderated is a big deal. I’m sure my boy knows this already. I have told him how I feel about underage use of tobacco and alcohol, and about drugs like meth etc, and what the laws are, as well as other issues like sex and crime and violence. I hope he listens and can understand there is a difference, a real difference, and that I do have limits and a line that does not get crossed. I guess there are enough real issues to deal with, without having to make up more like we do in the church in regards to our cultural commandments like the WoW. We have set OUR limits and expectations, jwald and myself — they just don’t happen to agree with the churches cultural commandments at this time. I don’t trust the bishop, or the prophet, so how can I really expect my kids to? I hope the boy will trust ME, and not put all his trust in the bishop or the prophet. I think the bishop and the prophet ARE blowing smoke, about coffee for sure, and I don’t think it would do any good to try to convince the boy that he was “sinning” by drinking a cup of coffee. I’m not running out buying a coffee pot for him, but I don’t want him to wallow in guilt about it either.
By the way, if you are going to drink coffee, drink the ground stuff, not the McDonalds or the instant stuff. Yeuch! Quote:Now the real question is: Is decaf against the WOW? That’s the question I think someone needs to answer!
I have started drinking alcohol free beer (I have found a brand which is half decent, although not as good as the real thing), but won’t touch decaff coffee (or worse decaff tea – nasty!). I used to enjoy coffee but I suspect its “badness” doesn’t stop with caffeine. Tea and coffee are very acidic, for example.
As for the WoW, I did ask this. A bishop told me some members do have decaff, but others don’t. And a lot about this appearance of evil thing.
GBSmith wrote:Once you decide that your dad, the bishop, the prophet, etc. is blowing smoke/can’t be believed/trusted/followed, how do you decide what’s ok?
Once you get to that point, you have to be responsible for making your own decisions, or figuring it out for yourself. Every action has benefits and consequences, whether life is fair or not about it.
Brian Johnston wrote:[
Once you get to that point, you have to be responsible for making your own decisions, or figuring it out for yourself. Every action has benefits and consequences, whether life is fair or not about it.
I agree but it doesn’t happen all at once. It’s more bit by bit, one decision after another and all along taking the praise and the lumps that go with it. I just wonder if an 11 year old is ready to tell his bishop at his aaronic priesthood ordination interview that the WoW doesn’t matter and then accept the consequences. Does he even have a clue what the consequences are?
As I said at first, it just makes me uneasy since what may seem to be little steps aren’t always.
You make a good point GB. Let me ask you a sincere question. What would you have done different in my place. cwald wrote:You make a good point GB. Let me ask you a sincere question. What would you have done different in my place.
I don’t have a clue. I’ve hesitated saying anything because I’ve afraid it would come across as a personal criticism. All I can say is it just makes me uneasy.
These are difficult questions. Being Mormon isn’t for sissies. GBSmith wrote:cwald wrote:You make a good point GB. Let me ask you a sincere question. What would you have done different in my place.
I don’t have a clue.
I’ve hesitated saying anything because I’ve afraid it would come across as a personal criticism.All I can say is it just makes me uneasy. Yes, that is why I have been “nice” with my responses.
🙂 It really is difficult Doug. Here I am, trying to find the middle way so I can remain a part of the tribe, and for me, throwing the Wow out the window is a big part of that. My 13 year old boy isn’t stupid – he knows I don’t believe it – and to make him wallow in guilt and to punish him or ground him for a principle that I don’t believe in really makes no sense.Yeah, obvious hypocrisy in cases like this are worse than just about anything else. It’s one thing to work out doctrinal views and accept heterodoxy, but to not follow the WofW while insisting your children do is a different arena entirely. Old-Timer wrote:Yeah, obvious hypocrisy in cases like this are worse than just about anything else. It’s one thing to work out doctrinal views and accept heterodoxy, but to not follow the WofW while insisting your children do is a different arena entirely.
So what do you do?
GBSmith wrote:So what do you do?
If the parent is relaxed on the Word of Wisdom, but doesn’t want their children to be that way, I think it is still reasonable to insist those things are not for children. It’s illegal anyways for kids to smoke or drink alcohol.
But of course that line of reasoning evaporates when they become adults.
I don’t think it is unreasonable as a parent to set the rule for their children that they are not allowed to drink coffee, tea, or alcohol (or smoke). I don’t think it would be healthy or wise to use religious guilt as a lever to enforce this though, not if you don’t believe it.
What Brian said. If it had been alcohol or tobacco, for example, my reaction would be totally different – and I have NO problem with other parents including coffee and/or tea in the forbidden stuff list. If there is a lack of explanation and a clear, non-age-related reasoning, that is hypocritical, imo.
My kids know I don’t allow those particular things in my house – and, more importantly, they know why, but some of them drink caffeinated sodas and others don’t, for example. There are lines I draw while they are minors, and there are lines I let them draw. I’m just very clear on WHY I do so – and why I consume what I do.
Yeah, well said Brian. This has turned into an interesting discussion. I was actually waiting for someone to “question” my response, and I appreciate how tactfully you did that GB. You make some good points that I was hoping to get some opinions about. I’m not sure there really is a good answer — just some good opinions. Old-Timer wrote:
If it had been alcohol or tobacco, for example, my reaction would be totally differentYes, I have had this talk, and made it very clear that tobacco is against the law until age 18, and 21 for alcohol, and for that reason they are not to partake of those substances at this time. (This is not about tobacco or alcohol – so if you respond, please keep it focused on coffee and tea.)
The whole coffee and tea is a completely different ballgame. Sure, anything in large amounts is not healthy, such as coffee, but is there really ANY good reason to FORBID a teenager from the occasional cup of coffee or tea? And then let them drink as much soda pop as they can? I don’t like to see kids at school packing around mugs of coffee all day long, but it really doesn’t bother me if they show up to class
in the morningwith tea or coffee. My kids, and jwald drink tea a couple times week nowadays. I do too when I’m feeling sickish. I don’t know – I want my kids to get some of the benefits from church participation, and drinking tea and coffee IS GOING to cause some problems in AP interviews and temple trip interviews, but I really don’t care or believe it enough to make the WoW “the law” in the cwald house. Mainly because I’m not willing to follow that cultural commandment myself, and secondly, I don’t want my kids to wallow in guilt and shame for breaking, a so called, commandment, that really makes no sense to me and is more about just obedience than any kind of health code. So, is coffee and tea drinking teenagers a DEAL BREAKER for Middle Way mormons like myself? I obviously have no intention of getting a TR, and the stake is well aware of my NOMness, but our kids are still FULLY ACTIVE which is really keeping me active too. Will the church leadership actually NOT advance my boy to the Teacher quorum because he drinks the occasional cup of tea and/or coffee? Will they not ordain my 11 year old as a deacon because he drinks tea? Will the SP not allow the teen daughter to go on the temple trip or girls camp if she is a tea drinker? And if so — is this the end of the LDS road for the walds? These are questions that have been on my mind this week.
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