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This was mentioned on another thread. I didn’t want to hijack. This saying is probably one of the dumbest (yes, I said the dumbest) thing I have ever heard at church. Not only is it terrible inaccurate, but anyone who has ANY type of brain and is willing to look at the history and the politics and the bureaucracy of the LDS church would have to know that the church is NOT perfect, nor are the people – and in my opinion, they were never expected to be. They have to know it – but they continue to deny it – for what purpose? So why does the church continue to use this saying, and why wouldn’t the GA’s come out in GC and tell people how foolish it is to think it? I can’t imagine a mass TBM exodus after learning this revelation. Maybe it would actually boost numbers and activity; that the church was actually being real and being honest with it’s members and admitting they have made some mistakes in the past? Why is the church so damn scared just to be honest and admit they have messed up on occasion and grow from it? Isn’t that we they tell us to do?
Funny you bring this up because I was just told yesterday for about the 20th time this year alone by well meaning TBMs that “people aren’t perfect, but the Church is.” I too HATE this saying. It seems to be the standard saying when ignorant or fearful members don’t know how to otherwise defend the Church. I could almost agree with it if by “church” it was meant “The Gospel of Christ” but that is just not what it is. Like it or not the Church isits people, its leaders, its prophets, its past, its present and its DOCTRINE. All of which are far from perfect. Yeah, as I said in the other thread, this is just something that is said out of ignorance and a lack of thought – but it works for lots of people, so I don’t challenge it extensively when I hear it. Generally, if I challenge it at all, it’s with a smile about “perfect” meaning “complete, whole, fully developed” – which, I say with a *wink wink* and another smile, we all know hasn’t happened yet. If anyone wants to read what we’ve discussed in the past about this general topic, feel free to read the following threads:
“The One and Only TRUE Church” (
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=142&p=1128&hilit=perfect#p1099 “The Church is True” (
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=151&p=1554&hilit=perfect#p1189 “One True Church” (
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=382&hilit=perfect I use to say that all the time!!! What I meant by it was that the gospel (according to Christ) was perfect. But now even that seems a bit silly. It is something TBM’s tell themselves and others when something really bothers them about the church. I know that is why I did it. I won’t be saying it again though. cwald wrote:This was mentioned on another thread. I didn’t want to hijack. This saying is probably one of the dumbest (yes, I said the dumbest) thing I have ever heard at church. Not only is it terrible inaccurate, but anyone who has ANY type of brain and is willing to look at the history and the politics and the bureaucracy of the LDS church would have to know that the church is NOT perfect, nor are the people – and in my opinion, they were never expected to be. They have to know it – but they continue to deny it – for what purpose?
So
why does the church continue to use this saying, and why wouldn’t the GA’s come out in GC and tell people how foolish it is to think it?I can’t imagine a mass TBM exodus after learning this revelation. Maybe it would actually boost numbers and activity; that the church was actually being real and being honest with it’s members and admitting they have made some mistakes in the past? Why is the church so damn scared just to be honest and admit they have messed up on occasion and grow from it? Isn’t that we they tell us to do? Claiming the Church is perfect even though people aren’t seems like the standard Mormon answer for almost any bad behavior by other members. The general idea is that you can’t really blame the Church if some members make mistakes or are not very nice. The assumption is that if some of the main doctrines and policies of the Church were wrong or not working very well in the current environment then God would supposedly step in and “reveal” this to Church leaders to set things straight. So because this is what we are left with it supposedly must be approximately what God intended. The problem with this idea is that it just doesn’t look like things really work that way in practice especially when you consider some of the glaring contradictions, historical scandals, and dramatic changes in doctrine.
If they’ve been wrong before and/or can’t seem to keep their story straight about things like polygamy and the priesthood ban based on race then it makes perfect sense to me that they could just as easily be wrong about the WoW, tithing, and temple marriage. I think the main reason they are in denial about this is mostly because it was too painful for them to face the facts and consider the possibility that maybe the Church isn’t really the “kingdom of God” after all but just another man-made church especially given the relatively high costs of membership and prevalent all-or-nothing mindset. It seems like they are afraid to change much of anything other than a few minor tweaks and PR moves for this same reason because they basically assume that most of these current policies and doctrines are already completely right and that anyone that thinks otherwise must be wrong.
Quote:cwald So why does the church continue to use this saying,
I hear this also, from many sources, SS, GC, local leaders and GA’a, starting back in primary. This kind of teaching is what set me up to feel betrayed, lied to, and get very upset when I learned about …
Quote:some of the glaring contradictions, historical scandals, and dramatic changes in doctrine. As the DA wrote Boy am I dreading testamony meeting tomarrow!!! I KNOW THIS CHURCH IS …..
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If people would simply accept and embrace the fact that the Church is NOT perfect, and neither are the people, all the way up to the prophet, then I think it would prevent a lot of problems. This unrealistic expectation is part of what floored me with some of the unpleasant experiences I’ve had in the Church. Now I believe the title cWald has put forward to be very true, and also believe it as a silent outlaw in the Church.
There are times when I think the Church itself needs to live up the maxim “Where much is given, much is required” if it makes such claims about its perfection so widely, without correction, throughout the membership.
This is one of my principles. Also, don’t expect perfection in yourself.
If we have no understanding of this, we’ll end up bitter, and maybe broken down…
SamBee wrote:This is one of my principles.
Also, don’t expect perfection in yourself.
If we have no understanding of this, we’ll end up bitter, and maybe broken down…
Amen to that Sam Bee.
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