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Cadence, fwiw, I think there has been a MAJOR shift in what you are describing in the last decade+. Sometimes, it’s hard to let go of how things used to be and see the differences now. I’m NOT saying it’s totally different now – but I definitely see a huge difference between what apostles said in my youth and what they say now. I am grateful for that change, even as I hope it continues.
Cadence wrote:I personally would have no problem with the leaders being less than divine in nature. I can respect them simply because they are in a position of authority without the stamp of God endorsing them on everything.
I think most of us here feel the same — for obvious reasons. But “we” here are a very small minority in the church today, albeit a growing faction.I would think the leadership wants to be all inclusive, and let’s face it, there are many instruments in the orchestra, and they are all important. It seems the leaders are evolving slowly to an attitude like you mention…some of them may not even recognize it, but it is good. If they were to immediately say they are NOT prophets, etc., half (or more) of the church members would leave!
God grant us patience…but give it now!
😆 
I also think they truly believe they are prophets and apostles in a very real and important way – and I don’t disagree. I just think their (and my) interpretation of those words is radically different than many members’ interpretations. There is a major difference between speaking to a global audience and speaking to an individual, and I believe firmly that if each person here had a chance to talk individually with a currently serving apostle your view of them would be different than it is now. I’m not saying it would cure everything for you (not at all), but I think you would see them differently. I really do mean that. I think they see their own role radically differently than many members do – and I KNOW it bothers them how often their words are over-analyzed, dissected and mis-used. That was true back when my mom worked for Pres. McKay, and I’m certain it’s every bit as true now – if not more so.
Old-Timer wrote:Cadence, fwiw, I think there has been a MAJOR shift in what you are describing in the last decade+. Sometimes, it’s hard to let go of how things used to be and see the differences now.
I’m NOT saying it’s totally different now – but I definitely see a huge difference between what apostles said in my youth and what they say now. I am grateful for that change, even as I hope it continues.
I actually think it is worse now. Maybe not by design but it has evolved that way. I have been around longer than most and I have seen the shifts. Obedience is preached very loudly and clearly now. Follow the prophet is a common theme in all correlation materials. Modern day revelation is very much a doctrine of our modern church. My point is I am perfectly willing to accept all those things, but there needs to be some substance behind the proclamation of being divine. I get concerned when members praise the church leaders for basically doing little. It is idol worship. Being a good CEO does not a prophet make. Imaging a church operating on everything we have received after Joseph. We would have a church with little doctrine. So why say they are prophets if nothing prophetic happens. accept them as men. I am fine with that.
Of course you could always take the position that they are prophets and they can receive revelation but God has nothing to say at the moment.
Cadence wrote:I get concerned when members praise the church leaders for basically doing little. It is idol worship. Being a good CEO does not a prophet make.
I hear what you are saying my Vulcan friend. I don’t know if it is worse now than it was 20, 30, 40 years ago. I don’t see it being worse, but…
I do 100% agree with this statement. Mormons CAN be guilty of idol worship in a very real sense. I just taught Moses and the Ten Commandments lesson to the youth sunday school (one of my many callings), and my daughter, yes, MY 15 YEAR OLD daughter made a comment very similar to this. Some kid mentioned worshiping pop stars and she amended the comment by saying something to this effect. Very observant, and almost “scary” that she is already understanding these things — things that took me 30 – 40 years to figure out.
Cadence wrote:I guess I would expect them to tone down the idea of them being prophets and revelators. If they are going to make that claim then I think it is justified for me to expect whatever they say concerning the church or doctrine to be 100% accurate from the get go without revision. If I claim to be an acrobat I had better be able to do back flips.
ABSOLUTELY.
Are things changing for the better in the last 10-20 years? It seems so to me, but I wouldn’t argue the point.
Quote:I guess I would expect them to tone down the idea of them being prophets and revelators. If they are going to make that claim then I think it is justified for me to expect whatever they say concerning the church or doctrine to be 100% accurate from the get go without revision.
I can only cite unrealistic expectations, my friend – and differing definitions. If we make that the definition of a prophet and revelator (practical infallibility), we might as well elimiate the very words. Now, maybe you’re ok with that, but I think there can be value in the words without imbuing them with a definition even they would not accept.
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