The Church needs a prophet. (?)

[Anonymous]

jmb275, I will add only that I also have had a handful of experiences that can be explained rationally in no way except that the heavens were opened to me and I saw or sensed or spoke prophetically of the future or of things unknown to me – very directly and explicitly, not vaguely like a fortune teller. I’m not saying they prove the existence of God, and I’m not saying they are “visionary” in the way that most members would interpret that word – just that they proved to me that there is something outside of myself that understands and knows more than we do in the moment.

One was an amazing experience while blessing our second son as an infant (giving him a name and a blessing) that is so obvious that my oldest son now refers to it as our own Star of Bethlehem – something shining brightly as a sign that God’s great work was being accomplished – something to which we can look and which we can remember as we make our own life’s journeys. There was absolutely no rational reason for me to say what I said in his blessing, and I had no intention of doing so when I opened my mouth, but what I said was spot-on and prophetic of the life he has lived in the last 19 years – and uniquely so.

I have a gift in that regard that manifests itself occasionally, and there really is no way to explain it rationally. I can’t control it, and there are plenty of times when I offer blessings or advice when I wish it would show up and not make me do my best all on my own. I don’t understand it (really, almost at all), but it’s real in a very objective way.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

jmb275, I will add only that I also have had a handful of experiences that can be explained rationally in no way except that the heavens were opened to me and I saw or sensed or spoke prophetically of the future or of things unknown to me – very directly and explicitly, not vaguely like a fortune teller. I’m not saying they prove the existence of God, and I’m not saying they are “visionary” in the way that most members would interpret that word – just that they proved to me that there is something outside of myself that understands and knows more than we do in the moment.

One was an amazing experience while blessing our second son as an infant (giving him a name and a blessing) that is so obvious that my oldest son now refers to it as our own Star of Bethlehem – something shining brightly as a sign that God’s great work was being accomplished – something to which we can look and which we can remember as we make our own life’s journeys. There was absolutely no rational reason for me to say what I said in his blessing, and I had no intention of doing so when I opened my mouth, but what I said was spot-on and prophetic of the life he has lived in the last 19 years – and uniquely so.

I have a gift in that regard that manifests itself occasionally, and there really is no way to explain it rationally. I can’t control it, and there are plenty of times when I offer blessings or advice when I wish it would show up and not make me do my best all on my own. I don’t understand it (really, almost at all), but it’s real in a very objective way.

Ray,

The more you post the more I just shake my head at the similarities between us. I too had an amazing experience in blessing a baby (in this case, my third son). My tongue was profoundly bound until I said what the Lord wanted me to say. It was amazing. When the words were right, out they came.

I don’t know that it is the same as what you have, but I have the gift of discernment. And the burden. 😳

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

I’m not saying they prove the existence of God, and I’m not saying they are “visionary” in the way that most members would interpret that word – just that they proved to me that there is something outside of myself that understands and knows more than we do in the moment.

Yes, I understand what you’re saying. And all along, from the moment I started this journey, my one caveat was an “unmistakable witness.” I have always said that if I got an “unmistakable witness” that I would immediately repent and return to orthodoxy (or at least believe again). I don’t feel I have ever received this “unmistakable witness” (despite praying, pleading, fasting, and waiting for years for it). I don’t define what that witness should be like, only that it be “unmistakable.”

I have been informed (by my TBM friend) that this is not how God works, and that I must be willing to accept any answer. God doesn’t change his plan for jmb275. I guess if God isn’t capable of, or willing to give me an “unmistakable witness” then I will have to humbly seek my own path.

Let me finish with one other thing here.

Old-Timer wrote:

I also have had a handful of experiences that can be explained rationally in no way except that the heavens were opened to me and I saw or sensed or spoke prophetically of the future or of things unknown to me – very directly and explicitly, not vaguely like a fortune teller.

…

There was absolutely no rational reason for me to say what I said in his blessing

…

and there really is no way to explain it rationally.

Now contrast this with (regarding my posts):

Old-Timer wrote:

When I read your posts and comments, I read lots of absolute statements. This or that “is”; this or that “isn’t”; etc. There is little room for nuance and ambiguity in most of them. I understand that, since it is a classic condition within Stage 4; in most cases, it is “inevitable” that most people who hit the wall in that stage will see things in such black-and-white terms at first. The challenge is to begin to embrace uncertainty – to begin to realize there are far fewer things about which we can be absolutely certain – to eventually embrace that as a good thing and something that allows for MUCH more growth and progress than our former certainty.

Let me mention that I respect you and your gift. And, in my mind, just because it may be able to be explained via psychological processes does not diminish your special gift. I simply am not convinced that these things give us insight into any great universal truths, God, etc. Or, at least, if they do in fact give us these things, then God gives these things to many many people as other manifestations, with other “truths” and other results. I am more inclined to believe in the kind of transcendent God that HiJolly describes.

[Anonymous]

jmb275, you’ll notice I said explicitly that I said all it proves to me is that there is something beyond myself that allows momentary glimpses into the otherwise unknown – and there really isn’t any way to explain a few of my experiences with just logic, reason or psychology. The vast majority are open to such explanations; a handful cannot. I have no clue what they mean – other than I have had experiences many others have not that I classify as a “gift”. I’m not saying that gift was given by a spacial God, although I believe currently in such a Being (as well as an all-encompassing “godness”), but rather that it is a gift in the sense that it is not something I purchased or acquired consciously.

One of the most baffling aspects of life for me is the stark difference in experiences among humans. I can’t explain it – other than to state that I am positive it has little if anything to do with effort or sincerity or even “faithfulness”, since I know of any number of people who are more of each of those things than I am but who have not had experiences like mine. It truly baffles me, and I don’t hold it up as proof of anything – except that we know far less of life (both here and not here) than we tend to think we do. Of that, I am certain – and, ironically, that is one of the things from which I have found great comfort and strength and peace.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

jmb275, you’ll notice I said explicitly that I said all it proves to me is that there is something beyond myself that allows momentary glimpses into the otherwise unknown – and there really isn’t any way to explain a few of my experiences with just logic, reason or psychology. The vast majority are open to such explanations; a handful cannot. I have no clue what they mean – other than I have had experiences many others have not that I classify as a “gift”. I’m not saying that gift was given by a spacial God, although I believe currently in such a Being (as well as an all-encompassing “godness”), but rather that it is a gift in the sense that it is not something I purchased or acquired consciously.

Yes, I think I acknowledged that you were saying that it proved it to you. I was simply trying to point out that you had mentioned to me that my posts (which I interpreted to mean my views) were full of absolutes. But you still hold to absolutes as well. Those experiences have proven something for you. We all have to do this in everyday life, or we wouldn’t ever make any decisions. All I’m saying is that for me, I have become highly suspicious of my spiritual promptings, gifts, and experiences. I personally feel, that for me, the psychological model better fits my experiences, and I am less inclined to jump to any conclusions about external gods, spirits, demons, aliens, or anything else of that ilk. As a result of this, coupled with the fact that there are many “false prophets” as it were, I am also highly suspicious of people who make claims about these external realities. Like Joseph Smith for example. That doesn’t mean I don’t like everything he said. On the contrary, I think he was a brilliant progressive for his time. And I still hold many of his revelations near and dear to me as they have shaped my life.

Old-Timer wrote:

One of the most baffling aspects of life for me is the stark difference in experiences among humans. I can’t explain it – other than to state that I am positive it has little if anything to do with effort or sincerity or even “faithfulness”, since I know of any number of people who are more of each of those things than I am but who have not had experiences like mine. It truly baffles me, and I don’t hold it up as proof of anything – except that we know far less of life (both here and not here) than we tend to think we do. Of that, I am certain – and, ironically, that is one of the things from which I have found great comfort and strength and peace.

Now this I can agree with. Personal experience is fascinating to me, and touches me spiritually in a very profound way. I think you nailed it with “except that we know less of life (both here and not here) than we tend to think we do.” I can agree, I am certain of this as well. I hope you have noticed a change in my posts. I try to write fewer absolutes and try to remain open to uncertainty and other possibilities. I think it has made a difference for me, hopefully others have noticed.

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

…Personal experience is fascinating to me, and touches me spiritually in a very profound way. I think you nailed it with “except that we know less of life (both here and not here) than we tend to think we do.” I can agree, I am certain of this as well. I hope you have noticed a change in my posts. I try to write fewer absolutes and try to remain open to uncertainty and other possibilities. I think it has made a difference for me, hopefully others have noticed.

I have noticed, jmb, and I appreciate it. At the same time, I am very much guilty of having a few ‘absolutes’ myself, and I’m also guilty of not having any intention of softening my stance on some of them. Maybe even most of them.

You see, I’ve already gone through some significant purges. I’ve deconstructed and given up every belief I could find within myself, and yet I do continue on occasion to find even more that escaped earlier purges. It’s a fascinating internal process, I must say.

The one thing I found impossible to purge was my ‘knowledge’ that God exists, along with a handful of His personal characteristics (like, Love). I’m willing to concede that I don’t really know ‘what’ God is, or ‘who’, or ‘why’, or whatever else there is to know about God, but either I *know* He IS, or I’m a hopeless mental case. At this point, in my mind there is no possible middle ground.

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

I also have noticed, jmb275. As HiJolly said, my own “absolutes” are relatively few – but I also have come to them through decades of sifting and sorting and considering and experiencing. Therefore, they are as absolute as anything can be for me. That doesn’t mean I understand the details, but I have come to accept a few absolutes – at least of general statements.

[Anonymous]

HiJolly wrote:

You see, I’ve already gone through some significant purges. I’ve deconstructed and given up every belief I could find within myself, and yet I do continue on occasion to find even more that escaped earlier purges. It’s a fascinating internal process, I must say.

I like the way you explained this. It is definitely a process, and I think the experience of going through the process is rewarding, not just the end goal of “purging all” beliefs that are false, or finding the absolute truths that may exist.

The process is therapuetic and provides good results (humility, toleration, boundaries, mental exercise, etc).

[Anonymous]

HiJolly wrote:

At the same time, I am very much guilty of having a few ‘absolutes’ myself, and I’m also guilty of not having any intention of softening my stance on some of them. Maybe even most of them.

You’re part of the wisdom of the crowd. I wouldn’t have it any other way. On an individual level we try to remain open, but in the aggregate we need to have people who are firm on diverse opinions in order to have a balanced group. I for one, am grateful you remain absolute on some things. I wouldn’t want it any other way.

HiJolly wrote:

You see, I’ve already gone through some significant purges. I’ve deconstructed and given up every belief I could find within myself, and yet I do continue on occasion to find even more that escaped earlier purges. It’s a fascinating internal process, I must say.

I hear you brother!! I’ve only gone through purging for about a year. I’m positive I have a long way to go.

HiJolly wrote:

The one thing I found impossible to purge was my ‘knowledge’ that God exists, along with a handful of His personal characteristics (like, Love). I’m willing to concede that I don’t really know ‘what’ God is, or ‘who’, or ‘why’, or whatever else there is to know about God, but either I *know* He IS, or I’m a hopeless mental case. At this point, in my mind there is no possible middle ground.

You know, contrary to the things I’ve said in the other threads, I’m with you here all the way. I haven’t purged my ‘knowledge’ that God exists either. But like you, I have no idea in what form, place, or His influence in my life. As I’ve said before, Einstein’s views really hit home for me. He was a deeply spiritual man, in my mind, but showed it in a way often not associated with spirituality.

[Anonymous]

It’s so interesting to listen to everyone’s experience.

The purging of ideas (knowledge or whatever you want to call it) resonates with me. However, I find it interesting that you all are describing long drawn out processes.

For me, it was a consecration of all my own knowledge and embracing that I don’t really *know* anything. I literally questioned everything-right down to a belief in God.

Then, I started rebuilding upon things the Spirit (or Light of Christ or whatever you want to call it) has taught me. Of course, that includes using my own faculties, intuition, logic, etc.

The more I learn the less I know. Ha!

Anyway, I feel that the learning and adjusting goes on forever but I saw the purging/consecrating as more of a done deal. I guess I won’t be shocked now if I have to do it again. Thanks for the perspective.

[Anonymous]

just me wrote:

The purging of ideas (knowledge or whatever you want to call it) resonates with me. However, I find it interesting that you all are describing long drawn out processes.

For me, it was a consecration of all my own knowledge and embracing that I don’t really *know* anything. I literally questioned everything-right down to a belief in God.

Then, I started rebuilding upon things the Spirit (or Light of Christ or whatever you want to call it) has taught me. Of course, that includes using my own faculties, intuition, logic, etc.

The more I learn the less I know. Ha!

That is exactly how I feel, although I don’t know if I purged everything, I just question EVERYTHING (including whether God really hears prayers or gets involved in my life), and am perfectly ready to purge anything I feel I should. I’m not trying to hold on to things just because that is the way I was always taught, but I’m not trying to jettison it all either.

I’m not starting from ground zero, just starting where I am and being open to anything. No fear. The truth will set me free. Don’t tell me what to read or not to read, don’t tell me how to vote, just give me information…I’ll make up my mind.

I don’t know if that will make my journey harder or longer. And I’m ready to purge it all if I have to also, no shock factor anymore.

The more I learn, the more I learn there is more to learn. :geek:

[Anonymous]

According to Hebrews 1:1-2, we no longer need prophets like in the Old Testament times, as we now have Christ Jesus…..God speaks to us by His son, now, so it appears that we no longer need prophets like is often quoted from Amos 3:7. That being said, I think the President or First Presidency of the church can lead us in many inspired ways, such as the Family Proclamation or other documents and believe I can sustain them as such, but personally I don’t see any of these men as prophet like in OT times.

[Anonymous]

LadyWisdom wrote:

According to Hebrews 1:1-2, we no longer need prophets like in the Old Testament times, as we now have Christ Jesus…..God speaks to us by His son, now, so it appears that we no longer need prophets like is often quoted from Amos 3:7.

Please, expound further for my benefit. While Jesus was on the earth, those could be taught by Him directly. After He was crucified, He used the Apostles to continue to receive His words.

My understanding is you have to let go of ancient prophets teachings (law of Moses) if Christ fulfilled them and taught a higher law, making Christ’s teachings what we should focus on, supported by ancient prophets. But going forward, without Christ on the earth anymore, there still needs to be a prophet to continue to receive Christ’s words and teachings for His people. Otherwise, everything in the New Testament after the 4 gospels would not be scripture.

If Christ appeared to Joseph Smith and said join no other church, then He must be teaching us we need a prophet.

Quote:

D&C 1

37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.

[Anonymous]

Ephesians 4 is crystal clear about the need for prophets after Christ. There simply is no reasonable way to discount what it says.

Also, Paul wrote most of his letters to counteract what was happening in the early congregations – the beliefs that were creeping into some places and breaking down the door in others. The tone of Paul’s letters differs greatly from one to another, and it is based precisely on the condition of the congregations to whom he was writing. Some were commending in nature; some were fairly even keel; some were almost condemnatory and certainly chastising.

Without what are considered prophetic writings after the Gospels, we would have no NT other than the Gospels. I honestly can’t understand the argument that prophets were unnecessary after Christ in context of the Bible itself.

[Anonymous]

Here is the main thread in our archives about modern prophets. I’m bumping it up so Inquiring Mind and others can read it and comment if they want to do so.

[Author]

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