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Daughter1 wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
He did purge the earth with Noah’s flood, and there is expected to be a purge before he comes a second time. But I agree the scriptures are slippery…full of contradictions so I’m not fully committed to either position on the purge issue. Just quoting what I read in the non-fiction book Lund wrote called The Coming of the Lord.
I agree that purging is totally within historic context of divine prerogative. I just don’t know of a prophecy that indicates it will be a central part of the run-up to the 2nd coming. And thank you for correcting me regarding the book. I only knew Lund as a fiction author and was not aware he had non-fiction work.
Gerald Lund was quoting scripture — I don’t like the idea of God burning all the wicked to stubble either as it sounds like some leader trying to change behavior by making God out to be a tyrant who punishes people heartlessly if they don’t get behind the current program…
But I read the book cover to cover a few times, and there was a whole chapter, if memory serves,on how God was to visit the church first with tests that separate the sheep from the goats.
I don’t read the apocalyptic scriptures much anymore, so my memory is fuzzy. Interested in knowing what others find…
SD
My theory with Joseph Smith is that sometimes when you see a vision of the infinite everything suddenly seems to be happening ultra fast, and from an infinite view, it is, but in our mortal view, it’s actually generations, and so you come back thinking OMG GUYS IT”S HAPPENING. And it’s like well,no, it takes generations to prepare,. And sometimes we see visions in a way that is relateable to us, so we see things that happen to us and to our families but it’s not us now, or our families now, but our progeny or it’s a metaphor of the things all families during that time will go through. But we don’t ask questions we assume. When Nephi asks about his father’s vision, he asks for the different meanings everything instead of making assumptions. We should do that for our own visions. My Mom’s theory is that the Savior would have returned IF Joseph Smith had lived and that all of us would have been born in the Millennium. I thought that was an interesting view.
We already have had two – the 1978 proclamation got rid of some people and the more recent one on the children of gays haa got rid of people from the other end. In a broader sense, it could be said that modern life is leading folk out. p.s. I actually think Lund is a very poor writer. I made the mistake of buying three of his books. He is no Dickens or Tolstoy.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
Dande48:Quote:“did you know we are the richest religious organization on earth?”
Maybe if you only consider liquid assets. Have you not been to the Vatican? They are literally sitting on a stockpile of priceless artwork and statuary, to the point that a bunch of it is gathering dust in closets.
The Roman Catholics make the LDS look poor. They got all the spots in downtown before the LDS ever did.
dande48 wrote:
[/url]. The Catholic Church’s property and wealth is estimated only around$30 Billion
The article linked about Catholic assets states that the Catholic church has MORE THAN $30 Billion. That is a rather large range without a ceiling.
Daughter1 wrote:
I will start this by saying I have never been particularly interested in church history or the early teachings of the church. I only really go down that route when I have questions about where a current policy/practice/whatever came from. So I may be missing something that was taught more explicitly in earlier times.
The idea that the Lord will purge the church prior to the second coming comes from D&C 112:24-25.
Please see this link for an orthodox treatment of the topic from 1992:
https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1992/10/cleansing-the-inner-vessel-the-process-of-repentance?lang=eng I find it interesting that the author of the linked article (which was published in the Ensign in 1992) refers to the “living prophet, President Ezra Taft Benson”. This would seem to confirm that this is not a topic emphasized by the church much lately.
Roy wrote:
dande48 wrote:
[/url]. The Catholic Church’s property and wealth is estimated only around$30 Billion
The article linked about Catholic assets states that the Catholic church has MORE THAN $30 Billion. That is a rather large range without a ceiling.
Haha, true that! I guess it’s hard to put a monetary value on things such as “one of the spearheads that pierced Jesus’ side” or “one of the right hands of Peter”. In the LDS Church, Moroni has our most valuable reliquary hidden, probably off-planet. How much are the golden plates worth? What about the sword of Laban? Moroni’s integrity can’t be bought! How about Joseph Smith’s seer stone? I’d put it at maybe a dollar or two.
It isn’t quite like comparing Apples to Apples. But I think it’s a half-decent estimate, and a good reflection of both organizations financial habits and spending power.
Interesting, I have always had a totally different understanding of this last purge. I guess I always imagined it being more a purge of people’s hearts. D&C 112:23 talks about the gross darkness of the mind, and later it talks about those who claim to know him and use his name but are corrupt. I always understood it to be a much more personal purging of the hearts. In that way to me it seems more difficult to show genuine love to others, just because you want to. After all no one will likely know, and you won’t get “credit” for it. The only reason to do it would be because you desire to do so. No one will really know if you are studying at home, and it becomes much more difficult to do those things if they can’t be seen of men, unless your heart is truly in it. Verse 24 is all about the desolation of the earth and weeping and lamentation. It’s pretty dooms dayish. But I do feel like I see this all around, or political climate, sexual and domestic abuse running rampant. When it talks about the purging beginning in the lord’s house and from there it will begin, I always thought of the lord’s house as being anywhere that people were trying to follow christ, not specifically lds, I have no idea where I got this from, but I just assumed that it would just be difficult to follow what you believe to be right in the face of all the darkness and opposition in the world, and whether you give in or stick to your own morals WAS the purge. Keep in mind I have absolutely no backing to this, and could be completely wrong, just my thoughts.
As I have thought about this, I agree with you Jaxzmin. I don’t read the D&C much and I honestly don’t put much stock in it, but I have thought of the purge in section 112 more along the lines of your interpretation. This is one thing that bugs me about scripture in general — it’s so VAGUE. Everyone has their own interpretation of what it means. If it’s a future prediction, it’s not even clear if major events qualify as the fulfillment of the prophecy. Sure people will say “See, the prophecy was right”, but do they even know whether that event was actual fulfillment? And why all this emphasis on faith? Why not make it clear what the truth is and then move forward? Some will say “Satan’s plan”. I argue not — his plan was to force everyone to be good. I’m not saying that. In my profession I constantly have to deal with “the end of the world when no more labor can be performed” — after final exams are done. I get better quality work, happier students, perception of being a good and fair person when it’s very clear what is expected to get the “A” (celestial kingdom).
I know this hits right at the core of religion — scripture and faith, but I no longer put much stock in either. To me both are justification for a diversity of religious thought. Give the world a flexible canon and an expectation that the major gaps in our understanding must be closed with faith (or else there is no salvation) and you have a recipe for a myriad of religions, some of which are truer than others — but it’s near impossible to tell which one is the truest. Maybe there isn’t a true religion entirely? And God provides a smorgasbord hoping that people’s diverse needs will be met in different churches that meet different needs.
For example, our church does not meet needs for socialization in my view. They do meet needs for structure and “certainty”, to the extent it can ever be acquired in religion (see the previous paragraph). It meets the needs of people who need structure, discipline, and repetition. Other churches do a better job of making an engaging experience, of creating a social experience, and allowing for a diversity of thought right within their own church. There is something for a lot of diverse people with diverse needs in their quest for spirituality.
It seems people have been waiting over 2000 years for the second coming. Every generation talks as if this is it. I suspect if there is actually such a thing our grandchildren’s grandchildren will be talking about it. As for me I don’t like the idea of a purge. What do we need to purge? Some people who skip church? Someone with unorthodox views? Their are many good people at church or not at church that do not go headfirst into Mormon culture. I do not think they need purging.
As far as church being easier they have no choice. People today are to independent to informed to follow the old path. I hope it works and the church can remain viable for people, but I give them credit for making long overdue changes
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