The church’s flaws make it true

[Anonymous]

I was just reading HiJolly’s intro, I like his comment about the church being “TRUE as an arrow is true; perfectly functional in obtaining its purpose, in fulfilling its sacred design.”

For me, the whole process of becoming aware of the imperfections and human frailties in the operations of the church (historically etc.) has been a tremendous opportunity for personal growth. It has helped me remove some of my pride, become somewhat less judgmental, hopefully a little more forgiving, focus more fully on love and the essentials of what Jesus taught. For me, becoming aware of the humanity has helped me progress out of a spiritual plateau that I didn’t know I was in (yes, first by crashing down but that is another topic).

If the purpose of the church is to help us progress spiritually – to help us grow personally, I can’t think of anyway that I could improve on its current composition to help it fulfil that goal (at least for me personally) more effectively than it is currently doing for me.

One big step was realizing that in learning to forgive all men (D&C 64:10 – not condone but forgive) I needed to forgive Joseph and Brigham for any mistakes they may have made.

It is the resistance we encounter that makes us stronger – wherever it may exist.

[Anonymous]

Interesting thoughts, Orson.

For now, I will add only that we sometimes lose sight of how radically different the stated goal of Mormonism is than any other Christian religion. (Buddhism’s ultimate objective is similar, but that’s another topic.) We talk of a literal and extensive conversion of character – of becoming fully something we now are only partially. Compared to the more “mundane” goal of mainstream Christianity, we really are radicals and extreme liberals theologically. I think that’s important to recognize and admit openly – that we have a radically liberal theology, taught within a generally conservative organizational structure (mixed with quite liberal elements, like a lay local leadership).

The things that bother me most about the Church are the more mundane aspects of organization and the interpersonal conflicts that inevitably arise when people with different perspectives interact and strive for unity. The things that inspire me the most are the visionary aspects that still blow my mind on a regular basis – the fact that such flawed people still could articulate such a mind-blowing theology and cosmic paradigm. Ir reminds me of the founding of the United States in some ways – some really flawed people who couldn’t live the ideals they wrote (e.g., in theory “all men are created equal” [except in practice for those slaves, who only count as part of a man for census calculations – and the women, who aren’t even mentioned directly]) but who still created something great and incredibly liberating.

I’m not sure if I would phrase it like you did, Orson, in the title – but I absolutely would say that the Church’s flaws make it real and powerful. Maybe, in the end, that is the same thing as “true” – perhaps defined as “not artificial” or “full”. In the end, I still define “true” as “pointed in the correct direction” (like “true north”) – and, since no other major religion (other than Buddhism) of which I am aware posits what we posit as the ultimate objective and purpose of life, I feel fine using the word “true” in that sense.

[Anonymous]

Hello Orson and Ray,

I love both of your posts. My husband and I were having a discussion about religion. (I am believing, active LDS, he has lost his faith and is in the process of “staying lds”) The discussion came down to his statement that he no longer believes in the authenticity of the church. I explained to him that I believe the church is true. I believe that even if Joseph and Brigham were imperfect, they were still inspired men of God….prophets. But I also made it clear to him that if for some reason, when all is said and done, my church is not true, I still believe that it is the BEST option within Christianity. It offers the most choice blessings and provides the most hope for the future. I also believe that I will never come under condemnation from God for living by its precepts. I also believe that a true, believing mormon could only find favor with his or her fellow man by living the gospel. It is my efforts to live this gospel that are helping me to deal with this new pathway in my life…….”We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God accoridng to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege……” Now its my turn to “allow” one particular man the freedom to discover what the “dictates” of his own conscience are going to be. The amazing thing to me is how comforting my religion is for me right now, when it would be easy to expect the opposite……..I never dreamed I would be going through something like this.

Thanks for your thoughts, they give me much to ponder.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Now its my turn to “allow” one particular man the freedom to discover what the “dictates” of his own conscience are going to be.

That is one of the most profound statements recorded in this forum, imo. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

pinkpatent wrote:

Now its my turn to “allow” one particular man the freedom to discover what the “dictates” of his own conscience are going to be.

What a great attitude. That really sounds christ-like and shows you have confidence in yourself and your beliefs.

That is the way it should be, not dependent on others to do or be or act some way, but actual tolerance while striving to find what brings you your own peace.

Thanks for that example.

[Anonymous]

I excerpted that quote as a new post – so that it can get the attention it deserves, and so that this thread can remain on the topic or Orson’s original post.

[Anonymous]

There was an interesting thought posted on another forum. The old saw is that “the church is perfect, but the people aren’t,” which kinda doesn’t make sense to me given that “the church” is an organization of people. I think what they really mean to say is “the gospel is true, but the church is imperfect.” But someone turned the phrase on its ear and said something I liked: “The church isn’t perfect, but the people are.” There’s something appealing about the notion that the people are the focus, the reason to be there, and not incidental to the corporate organization or the set of rules. People first.

[Anonymous]

It looks like my playing off HiJolly’s thought that “true” can mean “effective at achieving a goal” may have been overlooked. I agree it doesn’t make sense in a factual way, but in the sense that deeper valleys define higher mountains – the church with its history as it exists happens to create a situation more conducive to personal growth for me – and probably more effective than any other composition could be.

[Anonymous]

I really liked everyone’s posts. For me, the LDS church is my way for doing the things that bring me more happiness. And I have found that when I don’t attend church, I miss it greatly.

pinkpatent wrote:

I also believe that a true, believing mormon could only find favor with his or her fellow man by living the gospel.

I do have a bit of an issue with this. I think this would be awesome if it were true, and this is ultimately what I would like to see in the church. But this statement severely overlooks the intense hatred millions have for us particularly in CA with regard to Prop 8. Thousands of saints were “living the Gospel” when they supported the leaders of the church, yet, many gays, and non-gays hate us for it. It would certainly be nice if the church followed your own mantra, pinkpatent of

pinkpatent wrote:

Now its my turn to “allow” one particular man the freedom to discover what the “dictates” of his own conscience are going to be.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

…we sometimes lose sight of how radically different the stated goal of Mormonism is than any other Christian religion. (Buddhism’s ultimate objective is similar, but that’s another topic.) We talk of a literal and extensive conversion of character – of becoming fully something we now are only partially. Compared to the more “mundane” goal of mainstream Christianity, we really are radicals and extreme liberals theologically. I think that’s important to recognize and admit openly – that we have a radically liberal theology, taught within a generally conservative organizational structure…

The idea that we actually can become what the Lord says we can become continues to radically shape my view of life. We are not in this for small change. But for ultimate, infinite and forever Good. I love the metaphor of a rough stone rolling. I am to roll on in the path of the Lord. I must put forth my effort. If I follow the Holy Spirit, my rough parts will be made smooth. I have not found anywhere else the balance I see between human effort and God’s Grace.

Orson wrote:

If the purpose of the church is to help us progress spiritually – to help us grow personally, I can’t think of anyway that I could improve on its current composition to help it fulfil that goal (at least for me personally) more effectively than it is currently doing for me.

What is it about the church that is unique in the way it helps you? Would another belief system that has flaws be equally effective?

[Anonymous]

richalger wrote:

I love the metaphor of a rough stone rolling. I am to roll on in the path of the Lord.

This is my life metaphor too. I am a rough stone rolling — but I rolled down the wrong side of the hill, fell off a cliff into the ocean, and am now collecting barnacles. 😆

[Anonymous]

I hate to be the nasayer again, but nothing about it helps me in the last couple years. I perceive it as a drain on my time, my resources, and my inner peace. It is starting to cause tension with my wife since I’m not the full-tilt Mormon I used to be. I feel ostracized from the local tribe because I stepped down from a position….I find the character building aspect is there, but it’s often linked to being a good Mormon rather than a good person. Sacrifice for the Church is synonymous with sacrifice for God, and being noncommittal is synonymous for being unacceptable in the eyes of God or the local leaders in some way..

The real benefit is for my kids to get the basics of clean living — although I question the coffee prohibition. Not that I care for coffee, but it doesn’t seem like it has a huge benefit to exclude it.

I don’t like the title of this post either…I think it sounds like a statement meant to address concerns people have about it not being true. A possible way this post title could be true — would be if the Church would openly state it’s not perfect. Be open about the fact that it screws up in history, that leaders are not always inspired, and stop promulgating the myth that the Church is true but the people aren’t (the first half is a myth). Stop white washing history to make the Church look like a victim, and stop these conference talks like in teh first session of conference which are all about the greatness of the Church.

Speaking personally, I dont’ care about the greatness of the Church anymore — I care about how it helps its members with their walk on this earth. So, let’s stop putting leaders on a pedestal of supernaturality, and address its imperfections, and stop blaming all dissaffection on the members. THEN the title of the opening post might work for me…

[Anonymous]

Brian Johnston wrote:

I am a rough stone rolling — but I rolled down the wrong side of the hill, fell off a cliff into the ocean, and am now collecting barnacles. 😆

I’m a rough stone rolling also…the longer I roll, the more my smooth parts get cracked and broken. :problem:

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