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I definitely agree with that. I’d just make sure that I’m actually worn out at the homeless shelter and not doing things that aren’t really helping anyone. Quote:I’d just make sure that I’m actually worn out at the homeless shelter and not at the Relief Society Doily Factory.
😆 Exactly!I guess I have some completely different thoughts on this. It sounds to me like many are simply excusing the church, trying to understand why our culture becomes what it does. I think this is a mistake. Yes, the church is just an organization, but it is NOT like other organizations. That is, if the church were a corporation, it would disclose it’s finances to the gov’t. If I didn’t like working at the organization, I could reasonably find a new job. If I don’t like the boss, or don’t like what he asks I can disagree, tell him to take a flying leap, and go work somewhere else. This is the beauty of a free-market society. But in the minds of most TBMs the church is a monopoly, meaning, the church is the ONLY way to salvation. This gives the leaders of the church
tremendous(and unwarranted) power IMHO. With a simple, well-constructed talk, the leaders of this church could change the culture almost instantly. If President Monson stood up in Conference and said we only needed to pay 5% tithing now (contradicting the word I know), or even just gave some direction on how we could more loosely interpret “10% of our interest annually,” imagine the effects this would have on people and on families. If the church re-hired the janitorial staff, we would have Saturday mornings with our family. I believe that if the church had our best interests in mind all the time, it would be a very different place, and culture. We are a product of what we’ve been taught (in spite of our mistakes), and this is especially true since those who are most loyal, and obedient, are most often rewarded with powerful leadership positions. They, of course, then tend to encourage us to be more like them! It’s a self-fulfilling, self-sustaining cycle. In my opinion the leaders of the church are responsible for the culture that is created in Mormondom, NOT because they condone it, or approve of it, or want it, but because they are silent on changing it. To me this is evident in every single general conference. We hear the same stuff every conference about obedience, faith, sustaining the prophet. And each of the speakers reaffirms to us that they know the leaders are called of God and that we should heed their counsel. This, to me, is the very problem. I am trying to learn to drown these things out and focus on the Christ-centered ideas and doctrines. But I cannot excuse the leaders of the church from the creation of the culture that is Mormonism in light of the fact they have so much power over the people. If the prophet says “jump” the TBMs ask “how high.”
jmb, (try to keep in mind that “the TBMs” are our dear friends and family who might feel easily disrespected) I think that many of us here are simply realizing that our church is what it is. Its tradition is long standing, and its leaders and members are firmly entrenched in that tradition. Every church has weaknesses, and every church has strengths. Yes, your monopoly reasoning is accurate, but it isn’t realistic to expect such a long-standing tradition to be changed by fiat. The leaders and the members are all a part of the tradition. Only external forces working individually on the whole body can change the tradition. I am as insistent as you are about various dangerous traditions of our religion. But the only way they will change is as millions of us begin to change, and as the world around us changes. Reference polygamy, Mountain Meadows Massacre, and Blacks and Priesthood. Now, about tithing, you weren’t suggesting that a smaller tithing might be a better spiritual practice, were you?
tithing threadQuote:if the church were a corporation, it would disclose it’s finances to the gov’t.
Depends on the type of corporation. They disclose as other NPOs (non-profit organizations), based on those regulations. They are not a publicly traded company with a completely different set of regs and transparency requirements.
Quote:If I didn’t like working at the organization, I could reasonably find a new job. If I don’t like the boss, or don’t like what he asks I can disagree, tell him to take a flying leap, and go work somewhere else. This is the beauty of a free-market society. But in the minds of most TBMs the church is a monopoly, meaning, the church is the ONLY way to salvation.
A few thoughts here. First of all, based on your comments, I have to assume that you do not believe the church’s authority claims, so this “monopoly” idea doesn’t affect you directly. I guess I would ask, why do you feel you need to advocate for these TBMs you feel are being duped? Certainly they didn’t ask for your intervention and are quite happy to go along as they are. Being an unsolicited advocate is not only thankless but often harmful to those you mean to help.
Quote:This gives the leaders of the church tremendous (and unwarranted) power IMHO.
I do agree that this can be a problem. There are numerous examples.
Quote:With a simple, well-constructed talk, the leaders of this church could change the culture almost instantly.
Ah, here’s where I disagree. The same TBMs you describe above would have a huge issue with too much change at once, and it’s been proven time and again: doing away with polygamy, ending the priesthood ban, changes to the temple ceremony. Plus, IMO, the most oppressive cultural things are human frailties at the local level: local leaders who can’t bear correction and are full of themselves (rare IMO, but oppressive when it happens), judgmental cliquish types, controlling types who want to add “a nice sense of formality” to everything, and doomsaying social conservatives who spread fear.
Quote:In my opinion the leaders of the church are responsible for the culture that is created in Mormondom, NOT because they condone it, or approve of it, or want it, but because they are silent on changing it.
I’m not going to disagree with this, because I do think there’s an issue with the liberal heterodox intellectual voices being drowned out by the strident orthodox obedience-focused voices. But they are there, nonetheless, even among the current FP and Q12 if you look at what they say individually. The thing is that those latter voices seem to be louder on the whole, throughout history. I think the former voices tend to be more humble and therefore don’t push for recognition of their views, and the orthodox tend to try to push them out.
I strongly recommend reading David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism. Parts of it may fuel your anger, but overall, you get a real-life glimpse into the discord and disagreement that comprises the Q12 and even the internal struggles within Pres. McKay, a politically conservative but religiously heterodox and liberal leader.
I’ll say again that I really appreciate your comments here. It’s helpful to open these things up to broader discussion.
Ahh, shucks guys, thanks for understanding that I’m just a bit ornery. I was expecting to be lamblasted! Just some more of my thoughts.
Tom Haws wrote:
Yes, your monopoly reasoning is accurate, but it isn’t realistic to expect such a long-standing tradition to be changed by fiat.
This is where I get all idealistic. This kind of reasoning tends to imply (to me anyway) that the church, and it’s leaders, and whatever they say, transcends all moral truths. In other words, if we are doing something dishonest, we have an obligation to correct it right away, make restitution, and go through the other repentence steps. It’s just like polygamy. Never mind the laws of the land, never mind that it was frowned upon in society, and considered immoral (just like now), what Joseph said was doctrine. When do we have to hold people’s feet to the fire? We exhibit this same sort of behavior as a country with our politicians. (sorry to wax political here a bit) The new president comes in and excuses the old president. There’s no trial, no apologies, no restitution. And the majority of Americans sit back and relax in front of the old TV. There is such a thing as righteous indignation isn’t there?hawkgrrrl wrote:
Depends on the type of corporation. They disclose as other NPOs (non-profit organizations), based on those regulations.
Yes, in the letter of the law. But the church is one of the most wealthy religious organizations in the world. They are certainly making a profit by the spirit of the law, and they could certainly afford to be more generous in humanitarian aid (and for heaven’s sake hire back the janitors so we don’t have to clean the church on Saturdays anymore, I mean honestly, come on). And besides that, they don’t disclose finances to us, the tithing-payers.hawkgrrrl wrote:
A few thoughts here. First of all, based on your comments, I have to assume that you do not believe the church’s authority claims, so this “monopoly” idea doesn’t affect you directly. I guess I would ask, why do you feel you need to advocate for these TBMs you feel are being duped? Certainly they didn’t ask for your intervention and are quite happy to go along as they are. Being an unsolicited advocate is not only thankless but often harmful to those you mean to help.
Yes, I digress, you are right. I think I struggle with it, not because of what you’re saying here, but because I am still reeling from the effects of “finding my way out” (even though I’m still a member). And this is where I have a hard time with raising my kids in the tradition (I posted about this in another thread).hawkgrrrl wrote:
Ah, here’s where I disagree. The same TBMs you describe above would have a huge issue with too much change at once, and it’s been proven time and again
Once again, I wax a bit idealistic here. We surrender doing what’s right in the name of the TBMs having a “huge issue.” Typically, I’m too pragmatic to disagree with you, but when the subject in question is a church which preaches integrity, honesty, and exact obedience, it seems like we ought to hold their feet to the fire.hawkgrrrl wrote:
I strongly recommend reading David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism
Yes, it’s in the queue. I am anxious to read it after listening the podcast about it.Thank you so much, everyone, for your patience with me. I’m sure I come across very strong, angry, and bitter. Hopefully you can all relate and understand. Only about 1 year ago I was a typical republican, conservative, TBM, and then my world turned upside down.
jmb275 wrote:Ahh, shucks guys, thanks for understanding that I’m just a bit ornery. I was expecting to be lamblasted!
No problem. Honestly, jmb, we are on your side! How could we lambaste you?
jmb275 wrote:
This is where I get all idealistic. This kind of reasoning tends to imply (to me anyway) that the church, and it’s leaders, and whatever they say, transcends all moral truths. In other words, if we are doing something dishonest, we have an obligation to correct it right away, make restitution, and go through the other repentence steps. It’s just like polygamy. Never mind the laws of the land, never mind that it was frowned upon in society, and considered immoral (just like now), what Joseph said was doctrine. When do we have to hold people’s feet to the fire? We exhibit this same sort of behavior as a country with our politicians. (sorry to wax political here a bit) The new president comes in and excuses the old president. There’s no trial, no apologies, no restitution. And the majority of Americans sit back and relax in front of the old TV. There is such a thing as righteous indignation isn’t there?I pray you never lose that idealism! Honestly, you have summarized the great problem of evil. How do we fight evil in the holy way? Certainly not by giving up. Certainly not by becoming cynical. Fowler says the great danger of stage 5 is cynicism. Only the idealistic and courageous keep moving forward. Stage 4 is not evil. It is crucial and formative. Don’t fear it. Work it faithfully. Obama, Bush, terrorism, torture, yeah. All that stuff. How do we destroy evil? What would Jesus or Siddhartha Gautama recommend?
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