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Good post, Orson. It doesn’t make me feel any better about child abuse but it is some good food for thought. My daughter Emory was stillborn a little over a year ago. I have attempted to understand how this could happen to us (were’nt we doing all the right things?). I have also tried to understand how the plan of salvation applies to her. God loves my daughter perfectly. She was never disobedient or sassy, never cut class or hit her sibling, never lied or betrayed. God will carry my daughter (and his daughter) in his arms to her eternal resting place. This has changed how I apply the plan of salvation to myself. God loves me perfectly. I have had occasion to be disobedient, to sass, to cut class, and hit, to lie and even betray. I have hurt others in my weakness. God will carry me (his son) in his arms to my eternal resting place. Whatever location I end up in, whatever strata of heaven, it will be OK – because that is where I belong (not in a punishment way but rather that my true self really does resonate with my surroundings). I hope that my family will all end up there together in the same place. But if we don’t, it will be OK. Just as I cannot complain for going to an eternal designation that fits my true self perfectly, I cannot keep them from remaining where they belong just because I want them around me. This IMHO is the fullfillment of God’s love (and our love for each other).
Even so, I hope I get to visit (and be visited).
Brown wrote:Good post, Orson. It doesn’t make me feel any better about child abuse but it is some good food for thought.
I think that’s the point …that we should never feel good about child abuse. I don’t take the statement that “God IS what is” to mean that God approves of everything that goes on. It simply means that the broad general design fulfills its purpose. Part of that purpose is to let us experience the shock and horror that accompanies these things. The only reason we become twisted up about God not “fixing” the wrongs is the false ideas that have been spread about who/what God really is. Truth brings a form of peace, paradoxically – uncertainty about some things, and profound peace about others.
I believe we have been given the power and authority to “be God” on this earth – that our decisions and actions determine who is the God of this earth. Adam and Eve were told they would be Lord of all the earth – and “Adam” and “Eve” are generic terms for “man” and “mother”.
So, why does God allow such suffering and abuse? Maybe it’s because we aren’t willing yet to step up and assume our intended roles – and we allow it to continue and be so pervasive. We like to blame God, but we aren’t willing to see ourselves as the God we are blaming. In my own sphere of influence, I am that I am – but it’s easier to shift the blame to the great I AM and not tackle what goes on around us in our own kingdom of embryonic gods.
Old-Timer wrote:I believe we have been given the power and authority to “be God” on this earth – that our decisions and actions determine who is the God of this earth.
Adam and Eve were told they would be Lord of all the earth – and “Adam” and “Eve” are generic terms for “man” and “mother”.
So, why does God allow such suffering and abuse? Maybe it’s because we aren’t willing yet to step up and assume our intended roles – and we allow it to continue and be so pervasive. We like to blame God, but we aren’t willing to see ourselves as the God we are blaming. In my own sphere of influence, I am that I am – but it’s easier to shift the blame to the great I AM and not tackle what goes on around us in our own kingdom of embryonic gods.
That’s true most evil is manmade.
Although events like the recent earthquake and tsunami in Japan cannot be seen that way.
There is a Jewish legend about when the Egyptians were drowned in the Red Sea. The angels rejoiced at the Israelites being saved, but God said he was said at having to destroy some of his children (the Egyptians).
Natural disasters don’t have to be seen as God-mandated – and I don’t classify them as evil. I have a hard time seeing God up there at his computer entering the keystrokes for massive earthquake and tsunami. However, there is a possibility that this earth was created in a way that random acts such as these were set in motion. Perhaps that was done specifically by God to give us challenges and bring mankind together (nothing does that like a tragedy). Perhaps it is just what happens when you build a giant ball of rock, water an gasses and hold it together with incredible magnetic forces. Either seems plausible to me, But again, I don’t see this as a direct and immediate action of God to punish or teach anyone. I think M&G got it right. We don’t let kids play in the street – but we do give them car keys when they turn 16. I think the gods made this earth, and then dropped us off to fend for ourselves, knowing that humans would find great peace here, but that misery would also be part of the equation at times. There just is no other way for the plan to work if men are given free agency and the capacity to become “gods.” I don’t think the gods meddle much in our affairs, and I don’t think they cause earthquakes, and I don’t think they created child molesters and criminals as a way to teach us what happiness is (opposition). I don’t think the gods created opposition in all things – IMO, It’s just part of our evolution and the natural consequences of life when folks are given the gift of acting for themselves and the ability to make their own decisions.
I agree, cwald, that opposition just is. (“must needs be” can be translated as “is inescapable / inevitable” or “ain’t no other way possible”) Old-Timer wrote:Natural disasters don’t have to be seen as God-mandated – and I don’t classify them as evil.
What are they then? They create tremendous pain and suffering, which is evil.
True, we know these are natural processes, but in my view, evil is that which does harm. Natural disasters do harm.
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/SH-60B_helicopter_flies_over_Sendai.jpg [/img] I have absolutely no intellectual difficulty with suffering, because, like Hawkgrrl, I see us as co-equal with God. We don’t need to cry “Why? Oh, why?” to the ceiling. We can do it in the mirror. Ichose to come into this world. Iknew it was messy. Iknew it might be surprisingly difficult. Idid this. Not some external, evil God, but I. IAm. Now that’s Mormonism! Sam, I just make a distinction between “bad” and “evil”. What happened and is happening in Japan is heart-breaking and soul-wrenching, even more so because I served my mission there, but I don’t see it as “evil”.
It is true that we have “bad weather.” However, nature is not good or evil, anymore than a hand gun is good or evil. People create consequences that are evil or good. A person can use a handgun to kill innocent people, or it can be used to save innocent people. The consequence of nature can cause pain and great misery, or pleasure and great joy. Evil? I don’t think so.
IMO
Tom Haws wrote:I have absolutely no intellectual difficulty with suffering, because, like Hawkgrrl, I see us as co-equal with God. We don’t need to cry “Why? Oh, why?” to the ceiling. We can do it in the mirror.
Ichose to come into this world. Iknew it was messy. Iknew it might be surprisingly difficult. Idid this. Not some external, evil God, but I. IAm. Now that’s Mormonism! Yeah, we’re told this. But is it true? What’s the other choice? Become a demon and molest people til the end of time?
Tom Haws wrote:I have absolutely no intellectual difficulty with suffering, because, like Hawkgrrl, I see us as co-equal with God. We don’t need to cry “Why? Oh, why?” to the ceiling. We can do it in the mirror.
Ichose to come into this world. Iknew it was messy. Iknew it might be surprisingly difficult. Idid this. Not some external, evil God, but I. IAm. Now that’s Mormonism!
Excellent, Tom.HiJolly
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