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http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/crucible-doubt If you didn’t catch it, this KUER interview yesterday about the Givens’ new book was excellent.
The Mormonism that the Givens describe in this interview is the Mormonism I believe in. I’m going to have to finally read their books.
They also said the church asked them to write this book, as well as their earlier book The God that Weeps. This gives me a lot of hope in the direction the church is going.
Thanks for posting, Shoshin. I haven’t listened to this yet, and don’t have time right this minute, but I will listen. I just finished The God Who Weeps, and I find some comfort in it as well. I don’t agree with every word, but I do agree with the premises of the book. The Givens are slated to come to our stake in the near future and I look forward to hearing them speak. Thanks for the link, Shoshin. I will definitely listen to it. I bought “The Crucible of Doubt” a couple of days ago, and so far I am finding it to be FANTASTIC! I have been reading “The Crucible of Doubt” the last few days (I am about 60% of the way done) and feel a bit disappointed by it. I have found some parts to be very enlightening, but for the most part (and I’m not done yet) it has been sort of a let down. I guess I was really hoping for a treatise on doubt and faith vs. knowledge, however mostly it feels like they accept that things are not always perfect, people make mistakes, we must use our own insight, but then constantly appeal to the authority of the scriptures and prophets to make their case. Their opening premise is about a lock that no one could ever pick, because it was actually a decoy and the real lock was hidden, and just as our faith may be placed in something that is incorrect, we must find the correct thing to put our faith in. And, IMO, it feels like they are constantly attempting to affirm the trueness or goodness (even with its flaws) of the LDS Church. I appreciate their perspective, and perhaps I am not their target audience, but the book feels like a treatise not on doubt of belief, but on doubt of the “trueness” of the LDS Church (not all of the book, the parts that I have enjoyed did not focus so much on the Church aspect of things which is probably why I liked those parts).
Would be very interested to hear others perspective if you have read the book as perhaps my filter is seeing things other than the way the authors mean it to come across.
-SBRed
I may have spoken a bit too soon- I finished the book last night and even though it wasn’t exactly what “I” wanted it to be, I found the last 1/3rd of the book to be excellent. Chapters 7 – 11 make a very strong case for belief and authenticity. The authors discuss many of the great and spiritual people from past to present who have felt divine communication even though they are not Mormon (how could it be?
Chapter 9 contains a story about a man upset with God who talks with his Rabbi and they end up at the wailing wall and the Rabbi tells the man to let it out. Let God have it, shout and yell and plead and for an hour the man does this and then breaks down in sobs and then prayers. To me it was the most touching story of the book and a liberating idea that we are allowed to push back and plead our case and be humbled by all that we don’t know and don’t understand.
So, after a full read I fully endorse the book. There are many beautiful poems and thoughts and quotes. I have felt stirred to action, that even though I don’t know anything, I have the freedom to choose what I will believe and live accordingly.
One of the quotes by George MacDonald:
Quote:Even if there be no hereafter, I would live my time believing in a grand thing that ought to be true if it is not. And if these be not truths, then is the loftiest part of our nature a waste. Let me hold by the better than the actual, and fall into nothingness off the same precipice with Jesus and Paul and a thousand more, who were lovely in their lives, and with their death make even the nothingness into which they have passed like the garden of the Lord. I will go further and say I would rather die forevermore believing as Jesus believed, than live forevermore believing as those that deny Him.
-SBRed
Thanks for letting us know your revised opinion. I was starting to wonder if I should read the book after all. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Shared this book with someone at church who is open minded, but I don’t think is going through any crisis of faith. He gave me overwhelmingly positive reviews. He said it opened his mind to the idea that we don’t have a monopoly on truth, and that it can be okay to disagree with a prophet of God. Selfishly I was really happy to hear that because those two things, I think, differentiate me as a member more than anything else, and it’s nice to have someone else to talk about those with. He is sharing it with his wife who also really likes it. One thing I remember having a problem with early on in the book was just how much it places responsibility for our spiritual journey in our own hands. I thought it sided with the church too much. But I think in the end, taking responsibility means 1. Not blaming the church for my FC, which is hard to do, but keeps my anger at bay, but also 2. grants me the freedom to follow my own conscience when I disagree with a leader/scripture/talk.
My friend at church liked the personal responsibility aspect of the book because he said it gave him the responsibility to read more broadly, requiring a good member to read outside of the word of GA’s.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote:a story about a man upset with God who talks with his Rabbi and they end up at the wailing wall and the Rabbi tells the man to let it out. Let God have it, shout and yell and plead and for an hour the man does this and then breaks down in sobs and then prayers. To me it was the most touching story of the book and a liberating idea that we are allowed to push back and plead our case and be humbled by all that we don’t know and don’t understand.
Author Catherine Marshall, a Christian author, believes in the same approach. I remember reading about it in her novel Christy and I instantly fell in love with the idea. At the time I was TBM, and I mentioned it in a class I was teaching and man did I get a response. Even though most everyone disagreed with me, it’s an approach I still use. Sometimes just clearing the air helps.
mom3 wrote:Quote:a story about a man upset with God who talks with his Rabbi and they end up at the wailing wall and the Rabbi tells the man to let it out. Let God have it, shout and yell and plead and for an hour the man does this and then breaks down in sobs and then prayers. To me it was the most touching story of the book and a liberating idea that we are allowed to push back and plead our case and be humbled by all that we don’t know and don’t understand.
Author Catherine Marshall, a Christian author, believes in the same approach. I remember reading about it in her novel Christy and I instantly fell in love with the idea. At the time I was TBM, and I mentioned it in a class I was teaching and man did I get a response. Even though most everyone disagreed with me, it’s an approach I still use. Sometimes just clearing the air helps.
Yes! I think it can as well, and if God knows us and loves as is claimed, then I’m sure a little venting won’t stir the pot too much.
SunbeltRed wrote:mom3 wrote:Quote:a story about a man upset with God who talks with his Rabbi and they end up at the wailing wall and the Rabbi tells the man to let it out. Let God have it, shout and yell and plead and for an hour the man does this and then breaks down in sobs and then prayers. To me it was the most touching story of the book and a liberating idea that we are allowed to push back and plead our case and be humbled by all that we don’t know and don’t understand.
Author Catherine Marshall, a Christian author, believes in the same approach. I remember reading about it in her novel Christy and I instantly fell in love with the idea. At the time I was TBM, and I mentioned it in a class I was teaching and man did I get a response. Even though most everyone disagreed with me, it’s an approach I still use. Sometimes just clearing the air helps.
Yes! I think it can as well, and if God knows us and loves as is claimed, then I’m sure a little venting won’t stir the pot too much.
Any good parent can tolerate a child honestly complaining about things a bit, especially if they are trying to do a good job.SB Red, I am curious if you had first thought of the book as partly helping to shape the future path of the church would your impression of it be different? If it is to speak to the general membership it needs to reference the authority of the scriptures and come from an angle that members will accept. It is on my read list.
Orson wrote:SB Red, I am curious if you had first thought of the book as partly helping to shape the future path of the church would your impression of it be different? If it is to speak to the general membership it needs to reference the authority of the scriptures and come from an angle that members will accept.
It is on my read list.
Mine too! So many books and podcasts – so little time.
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