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“culture of family” is maybe a part of this topic to be considered beyond marriage itself. Are some of the concerns raised above about marriage more around starting families and bringing kids into the situation too young, even more than marriage itself?
2 young people married without kids but have years to work together to get financial and educational needs and have some real advantages than living single and being engaged for years (one work, one finish school then vice versa, tax advantages, time to develop relationship alone as a couple).
But if the culture is get married AND start having kids right away…now it is complicated. What if the couple isn’t too compatible, but with kids feel they stay together for the sake of kids, or perhaps can’t develop the strong foundations of their relationship because kids introduce such a demand financially, commitment, limitations on working, limitations on sleep, etc.
For both my daughters married before they were 24, I felt great about the choice they made because I LOVE my son-in-laws better than anyone else they ever dated…just absolute perfect fits for them and their personalities…RMs with a kind heart and loving nature and total commitment to church and their wives and their responsibilities (they aren’t off hunting with their buddies…they do everything with their wives)…just really great guys.
So…the marriage young has worked out great so far.
What I do have strong opinions about that I talk to each of them about is that they should not start having kids until they are ready…and to take that very serious. I warn them against a careless approach of “just start having kids…it’s the next thing you do on the checklist”.
no…they need stability at home. They need to be ready emotionally. I want both my daughters to finish their degrees and have career options and world perspectives before bringing kids into their homes.
Their family decisions are theirs to make with the husbands…but…I see stronger risks to a family with kids than a young married couple without kids.
What do you all think?
Is it more a concern for having kids young…or more a concern about marrying young?
A failed marriage with no kids is a lot less traumatic than one with little kids. The worst approach, I think, is if a young couple is struggling, to feel like maybe what is missing is having a baby to help fix things. That should never be the answer.
Thoughts?
I love the thoughtful discussion in this thread. Clearly there is no one right way to do marriage. Who you marry is the one decision that may affect your happiness above any other. I certainly believe in getting to know your prospective love interest and to be aware of red flags. There is wisdom in becoming self aware to the point where you get to know who might naturally be able to fulfill your needs in a marriage and who might not.
Beyond that we are left talking about trends. Ray pointed out that statistically getting married in your teens is a bad idea. I also believe that financial instability adds strain to a marriage – particularly if there is no end in sight for that instability. I therefore believe that it is wise to plan for a way to make an income before marriage (and during marriage) in order to alleviate unnecessary financial pressures. Heber does well to point out that getting married when the time is right but delaying having kids until you are ready is also an option.
I have told my kids I don’t care when they get married, as long as they wait until after high school, graduate from college, have skills to sustain themselves if something happens to their spouse, AND don’t have as many kids as we did before graduating from college. I wouldn’t change a thing about what we did, but we live in a very different economy now – and I talk openly about that with my kids.
In chronological order, oldest child to youngest child, my children got married at 26 (male), 24 (male), and 25 (female – marrying this Saturday). The boys and their wives graduated from college before having their first child; my daughter has a Master’s Degree and will work as an accountant until her husband graduates from college. They are not planning on having a child until then. The next daughters are not married: just grasuated from college (22), a college sophomore (19), and a high school sophomore (15). They all are planning on graduating from college, and I doubt any will have a child before that. The third daughter (19) just told us she has decided to serve a mission next summer, so she probably won’t be married until she is at least 22. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if our youngest gets married when she is in her upper 20’s or later.
We have six children, 29-15, and five years (combined) of children being married. We have two grandchildren currently. We probably will end up with an average of 2-3 grandkids per couple. I think that is becoming more and more common in the Church, and I am fine with it.
SilentDawning wrote:
hawkgrrrl wrote:
We should care about their future, and that doesn’t mean just getting them pregnant at the first sign of fertility. We do a very poor job encouraging women in this church to be able to be financially independent which leads to some of them being abused, not able to divorce, or reduced to poverty.
Then you should love my advice to my daughter to live her life so she can have her own income and own independence at any time she wants it. To be hopeful and hardworking in a committed relationship, but never to give up her independence. Self-reliance goes well beyond having a food storage.
I also told her not to get sucked into childbearing as soon as she gets married just because a church leader recommends it. She can do what she wants, but at least to consider there are other alternatives.
Yes! This is great.
My issue with the LDS culture of marriage is mainly in the way it limits women. When I was growing up, marriage and family were discussed as not just the highest goal, but the only goal. Sometimes it seems like women only really matter in what they can contribute to a family unit. “Real life” begins for a woman once she’s married.
Oh, they talk about making sure you get a college degree, so that you can have a “back up plan,” in case you become widowed or divorced, but it’s rarely ever discussed (at least, in my experience,) in terms of gaining independence, finding your passion or learning how to channel your talents to make a positive contribution to the world. And I agree that there can be no greater contribution than your children, but does that have to be the *only* one?
I was 19 when I met my husband. Still a child, really. But my he is a genuinely great guy, and I fell in love him, so…I married him. Why wouldn’t I? That’s what you do. And my husband is still great, but once the momentum of marriage and babies slowed down, I realized I wanted (needed) more than being a wife and stay at home mom only. And know that I have nothing but the highest respect for stay at home moms. Trouble was, I had nothing really to start from. I’d never thought in any serious way about what career would work best for my talents. And while I had a degree, it wasn’t enough to really get me started in anything.
It’s not an insurmountable problem, of course, but I am determined to share all of the options with my daughters, and to teach them that there can be multiple combinations of options. And that they matter as an individual, not just as a wife or mother.
AnotherWay wrote:
It’s not an insurmountable problem, of course, but I am determined to share all of the options with my daughters, and to teach them that there can be multiple combinations of options. And that they matter as an individual, not just as a wife or mother.
:thumbup: yes!I have tried this with my daughters too. They are both temple married now. After teaching them and encouraging them to put off marriage until after education and time to develop who they are and what they want, I supported them as they make their own choices.
A few years ago, NPR was discussing early marriage. They stated that statistically, if either partner is under the age of 20 when they marry, 19 out of 20 marriages will not last. I would like to think the LDS statistics are better, but I would suspect the stats are still not great. In LDS society, if someone had a divorce while really young, it doesn’t get discussed. I feel that married professional women might be occasionally disapproved of within the LDS culture, but when they divorce and and able to support their children and lifestyle without church/ward support, they gain status within the culture.
SAHMs who divorce and are unable to financially support their families, they are all too often treated as second-class members in a ward. Too often, they fade out of church activity, and the ward is happy to see the “problem family” just go away.
The result is that early marriage and little education sets LDS women for failure in life.
To be fair, ap, early marriage (and/or children) and little education set up just about everyone for failure throughout life. It is one reason why the southern states economies and economic demographics are so bad, generally. Old Timer wrote:
To be fair, ap, early marriage (and/or children) and little education set up just about everyone for failure throughout life. It is one reason why the southern states economies and economic demographics are so bad, generally.
Good point. It’s not a just a problem for the women; every statement AP made about women can be directly applied to men as well. Also, the 19/20 failed marriages for those who marry young seems incorrect. I checked the
BLS.govI also think it’s important to note, that with the exception of the past 100 years, marrying young was essential to success, in all aspects of life. Times have changed drastically, with divorces skyrocketing across the board. There are many factors “why”. But I don’t think marrying young in itself is the culprit.
I do think marrying before 20 in our current culture is a bad idea, generally speaking. I hope that was clear. Old Timer wrote:
I do think marrying before 20 in our current culture is a bad idea, generally speaking. I hope that was clear.
I think you might argue that, generally speaking. I married my wife when she was 19, and it did cause some problems at first. I felt like her father on some issues, and a husband on others. That has gone away with age, though, as she’s matured. She does regret the early marriage, as it thrust her into the grind of working, rather than enjoying the freedom and variety that comes with unmarried young adulthood.
My daughter was 18 six months ago and is already considering marriage given her personality, attractiveness, and apparent widespread desireability among LDS young adults. Plus she has a serious suitor in his early 20’s. But throughout her entire life, from elementary school to the present, people have consistently commented on how she is very mature for her age. It seems that in the last year, she seems more and more like an adult every time I talk to her. All the teenagerish “put-offedness” I received from her in the last three years seems to have disappeared in the last four months or so.
So, in that case, I’m not against marriage even though she still has “teen” at the end of her age moniker for the next year and a half.
So, there are exceptions based on overall maturity.
dande48 wrote:I checked the
BLS.gov
i agree it is high but not 95%.
I also wish the statistic showed 19-22. Including <19yrs old is takling about something different than the problems from our culture of marriage.
I wonder what % of mormons marry <21 and of those, what % are happy in their family and marriage vs >21-30 yr olds.
Sometimes I wonder if marriage itself is hard, no matter what age you marry…and if one struggles in marriage…it becomes an easy scapegoat to go towards regrets of marrying young…when…those marriage struggles may happen regardless of age.
The thing I told my daughters is that being young and single gives opportunities for life experiences…missions, education, study abroad, travel, and even just enjoying dating and relationships in all it’s varieties…time to explore and do things. But my wife reminds me…when you find the right person and you’re in love…why put off the inevitable?
Both my daughters understood trade-offs and choices…they are happy right now with marriage life. We will see in 10yrs after life trials how they feel.
I guess I was just wondering if the marry young thing was a bit of a scapegoat…kind of like when therapists blame dysfunctional parents for psychological issues…that kinda thing.
I haven’t read through the entire thread so if we have covered this just ignore me. I was a barely 20 year old bride. I could go on for hours about it being too early, etc.
However, I have watched plenty of older people get married and I have determined that getting married at any age is just like learning to drive. Whether your 16 or 60 driving has the edge over you.
For older people they have grown accustomed to managing life their way. And even when they enjoy their companion they struggle with the give and take. I know some couples who have it worse when they are older than younger ones because they have had loads of time to set their spouse expectations. And none of us ever gets the spouse we thought. Add in in-laws, societal expectations, etc. Every marriage is a haul.
I think my biggest concern over our culture of marriage is the simplicity with which we present it. Just find a good member, preferably RM, marry in the temple, Stay Worthy – and surprise it’s all done. Thing is we have the same script for 20 year olds and 40 year olds alike.
It’s our scripts that is the problem. Even the ones we each write for our future spouse (or present if we are married).
Very wise words, mom3. mom3 wrote:
It’s our scripts that is the problem.
100% YES!
:clap: I also really like your driving analogy…
mom3 wrote:
Whether your 16 or 60 driving has the edge over you.
…because I do think that whatever age…it involves some practice and learning and developing by doing it you can’t get just by preparing more and more. At some point…you have to get behind the wheel. And also…I know some younger drivers that are more responsible and ready than others, and sometimes more prepared and ready then 22 yr old drivers. There is variation.
It is still a good idea to prepare as much as possible…but it should be more focus on addressing this problem than really the age itself…
mom3 wrote:
Just find a good member, preferably RM, marry in the temple, Stay Worthy – and surprise it’s all done.
That is the thing to address…setting expectations and reality around it.
I will repeat what I said earlier in the thread…for one of my daughters (if not both)…they are doing BETTER in developing their personal skills and self-discovery by having great husbands support them rather than if they were to do it all alone…and only consider marriage after they’ve figured life out (which, of course, never happens).
Old Timer wrote:
I did some research into marriage ages inside and outside the LDS Church a few years ago when the question was asked. The differences aren’t surprising, but a few things might be to many here. To the best of my memory:1) The average first-time marriage ages for male and female, active Mormons (in the USA) were about 24 and 22. For the general population, they were about 28 and 25. So, the average Mormon marriage occurs about 3 years earlier than the average American marriage.
2) The average ages indicated that the average male was roughly college-grad age, even accounting for a two-year mission, as was the average female (given much lower mission numbers).
3) The marriage age where eventual divorce dropped significantly, nationwide, was 20-21. (People who married in their teens were FAR more likely to end up divorced.) This means the average LDS marriage was after the largest ages for eventual divorce.
These numbers match what I remember from when I studied this stuff closely. I also remember some factors relating to marriage longevity were marrying after college degree, having good employment prior to marriage, and having a shared faith. Also, teen marriages are nearly all doomed to fail.
My oldest daughter married at 19 to a 21 year old guy. Neither had degrees or good jobs, but they did share a faith and married in the temple. They also waited 4 years before having a child, which helped them establish themselves a bit and learn how to be married. They now have a four year old and while they aren’t financially stable, they seem to be on a pretty good path and seem to know what they are doing. Second daughter finished some schooling, married at 21 to a 23 year old who was not a college grad but a smart, kind, hard working kid. Although worthy, they didn’t marry in the temple so younger sibs and other family could attend. My wife and I supported that decision 100%. Shared faith but neither had good jobs. Still married and seem very happy two years later with no plans for children anytime soon. Third daughter, college grad, engaged to be married at 20 to a 24 year old with technical school education and decent job. Shared faith and I don’t suspect they’ll marry in the temple for same reason as second sister, and also that they are less believing. They’re both quite spiritual but not so religious. Youngest two kids are still in HS.
My oldest three daughters all married (or will marry) Mormon guys but not RM’s. The first married in the temple, but that was more the expectation at the time and prior to our family’s mild to moderate disaffection. Interestingly, my kids score very high on intelligence tests (get that from their mother) and also so far have married (or engaged to) very intelligent guys. It seems like intelligence attracts. They’ve also so far married great, hard working guys that seem to fit well in the family.
I was 22 and my wife 21 when we got married. We got lucky because we were young, dumb, college students. I was an RM and we married in the temple like you’re supposed to, but what probably helped us the most is that we moved out of state for school and didn’t have kids until five years later. We forced ourselves to learn and grow together. We returned to live near family once we started having kids, which also probably helped us. Still, Our roughest time was during grad school when we had two small kids and I was going to school and working full time. If I could go back and change anything it would be to start on chosen career path earlier. It took me too long to figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up. Still, the journey probably added wisdom. That’s the story I’m going with, anyway.
I also think a big factor in marriage longevity that’s not talked about so much is the shared family history of marriage. That is, what do marriages look like in your family and your spouse’s family? Going back in both my wife and my families, I find just one great grandmother on my side who ever divorced (and she did it many times, but that’s another story). Maybe there is a gene or surely at least a tradition or expectation (even among non LDS families) for marriages to work out.
I also remember the stats regarding LDS divorce to be very close to what is seen among members of other faiths. Many years ago, there was some inaccurate information bandied about suggesting that only 5% of temple marriages end in divorce. The data, as far as I can remember, showed it to be closer to 20-25%, which is about the same as other shared faith marriages. Age at marriage was a much bigger factor than religion, as far as I remember.
I think young LDS men and women still receive the message that the temple is the goal. Marry in the temple and everything will be great. I think we’ve recently done better in helping teach the young women there’s more than this to being happy and productive, but the prevailing message, at least from my vantage, seems to still be: go to college, marry an RM in the temple, have lots of kids, and endure to the end.
I agree that marriage is challenging. I believe that those challenges are best met with a depth of maturity and emotional intelligence. I believe that generally people have opportunities to develop more of these traits as they age. As with everything in life, there are no guarantees. I think it is also important to remember that these decisions are not made in a vacuum. Remember the statistic on single adult women in the church. If they wait too long then the scarcity problem of reasonably acceptable suitors gets worse.
I would prefer that my kids not get married before 20. I would prefer that my kids not have children until they have an undergraduate degree under their belt. My preferences are a matter of financial security in addition to issues of maturity and emotional intelligence.
For me and my wife, we met when both of us where close to getting our degrees (although at different universities). I was a semester ahead. We had the choice 1) to get married and then live apart as DW finished her degree, 2) get married and have DW drop out, or 3) postpone marriage until after DW graduated. We choose #3 and barely made it a temple wedding because it was sooo difficult to keep our hand off each other.
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