The Culture of the Gospel

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

SilentDawning wrote:

My conclusion is that it beehoves each member to decide what it means to love their neighbor, and do that….and that sometimes means filtering out other people’s version of “the gospel”.

In different words that’s exactly what I said.

Ok, so back to my opening comment — in my view OTHER PEOPLE’S version of what constitutes the gospel has not made my happy. In that sense the gospel, as defined by so many others and in some cases, the mainstream membership, doesn’t make people happy — as a universal principle. It is NOT a recipe for happiness as so many people seem to want to assert.

If people take offense at that, well, I guess that’s fine. As we are so much a product of our own experience. And you can only deny your own experience, or write off extreme anomalies as “isolated incidents” so many times before you just accept that those anomalies, in your case, are the norm.

And also, ask a few of the members who have been active on this site whether the LDS version of the gospel made them happy. The answer is a blistering no on the whole, to the point they have to live lonely and alone their whole lives. One member got himself a same sex partner and lived his life in the church as an excommunicated member. Without full fellowship, without having a calling, without going to the temple. That was the only way he could stay active yet have a relationship like heterosexual couples.

This is not to steer the conversation into same sex issues, but it’s to show that the gospel of happiness is not always a gospel of happiness. For some, its a compromise, and for others, a gospel of misery….

I am somewhere in the middle between happiness and misery.

[Anonymous]

Just a few thoughts.

We can’t project on own experiences, or even the experiences of others we know, onto others. That is, because we have had bad experiences with the church (and many of us here have) doesn’t mean everybody has. It could be a matter of perception, but it turns out perception is reality. I think there are some people who find happiness in the church, even if it is “only” perceived. I think others see the happiness (or joy) as some future event or state as a reward for “enduring” here.

There are lots of parrots in the church. Sometimes in SS or PH or F&TM I feel as though I am in a room full of parrots. It is what it is. Some people only talk about happiness because that’s what they want and they are engaging in affirming behavior – repeat it often enough and it will become so (which also seems to be how some things become “doctrine”).

In short, the church works for some and doesn’t work for others. I do believe the gospel can work for everyone, but in its simplicity as earlier stated. If nothing else it gives hope, which is all some people have. The church’s iteration of the gospel does not always give hope, and I believe that’s wrong – and that’s why I choose to live the gospel as I understand it and not as anyone else (including GAs) seem to understand it.

I’m kind of reminded of Scrooge’s nephew Fred:

Quote:

“There are many things from which I might have derived good by which I have not profited, I dare say,” returned the nephew, “Christmas among the rest. But I am sure I have always thought of Christmas-time, when it has come round-apart from the veneration due to its sacred name and origin – if anything belonging to it can be apart from that – as a good time; a kind, forgiving, charitable, pleasant time; the only time I know of, in the long calendar of the year, when men and women seem by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely, and to think of people below them as if they really were fellow-passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys. And therefore, uncle, though it has never put a scrap of gold or silver in my pocket, I believe that it has done me good, and will do me good; and I say, God bless it!”

Try substituting “the gospel” or “the church” for Christmas. Lots of people could say likewise of the church or gospel.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

Just a few thoughts.

We can’t project on own experiences, or even the experiences of others we know, onto others. That is, because we have had bad experiences with the church (and many of us here have) doesn’t mean everybody has. It could be a matter of perception, but it turns out perception is reality. I think there are some people who find happiness in the church, even if it is “only” perceived. I think others see the happiness (or joy) as some future event or state as a reward for “enduring” here.

There are lots of parrots in the church. Sometimes in SS or PH or F&TM I feel as though I am in a room full of parrots. It is what it is. Some people only talk about happiness because that’s what they want and they are engaging in affirming behavior – repeat it often enough and it will become so (which also seems to be how some things become “doctrine”).

I wasn’t implying that my experience is everyone else’s. But my experience is my experience, and after repeated patterns of behavior from leaders or members, I can’t with conscience accept those patterns as unlucky anomalies for me personally, and keep on exposing myself to it. Life is too short and I truly want to be happy!!!

I think I’m pretty good at respecting the TBM and parroting (love that analogy) we see at church in others. I never speak out, never act contrarion, never shoot down their perspectives. But I personally don’t get how it’s a gospel of happiness for so many people. But that doesn’t mean I don’t accept that in others. If they say it makes them happy, I’ll accept that wondering if a) it truly makes them happy or b) they are just saying that because everyone else does (like I used to).

There are a lot of happy people who don’t have the weight of the entire suite of LDS shoulds that form the LDS gospel for so many people. And I’m one of them now.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

I wasn’t implying that my experience is everyone else’s.

Thanks for clarifying.

Back on page 2, when you said,

Quote:

I don’t even think fully living the gospel brings happiness. Sometimes the things they ask you to do cause untold stress and unhappiness. I know that staying in my marriage due to the temple covenant and promise I’d made was a massive source of unhappiness for many years until I learned to cope. Staying in my calling when I was burnt out caused misery. Exposure to toxic personalities in the church — moreso than any other place in my service realms — that plunged me into the depths of misery.

…yes, that sounded like you were implying that was the case for everyone else also, based on those kinds of examples, and saying “they ask you to do”…it was implied you were not talking about your experience.

I took it as you were implying the gospel causes the problems you experienced, and does for others, and I cannot disagree more with that idea. I don’t disagree with how you feel you experienced things, and I believe all those things happened to you…I disagreed with the implication it was the gospel and applies to others, and since others read this forum…wanted to call that distinction out. Frankly…I don’t think any of those examples you shared are part of a gospel culture. To me, it sounds like you’re conflating church issues, mortal issues, people imperfection issues with gospel.

I also think this is the kind of discussion one might have with a family member or friend in the ward or bishop…and therefore a good exercise here on this forum to practice how we would resolve the communication…since that is the purpose of the support forum…not just point out the gospel doesn’t bring happiness and leave it at that. I know you better than that…and see you stayLDS and work through lovingly how to lift others in the ward, with your own twist and your own personality and style with all you do at church. Yet…there are some implications that didn’t sound right to me, and worth responding to discuss it, I think.

If the gospel is centered on love and the 1st two great commandments, it sounds like you are saying love sometimes leads to unhappiness.

I have had a temple sealing, and I was miserable, and it was not healthy for me to stay in that relationship. Is it the gospel that I must stay in that marriage and live out a life sentence for a choice I made at age 21? No.

I have come to a place I am at peace with that, and I’m trying to express my experience that my temple marriage was not a gospel-centered eternal marriage, despite a church temple sealing.

Separating them out now makes sense to me. If it was a gospel centered marriage, it would have made me happy because it would have the elements that make people happy (love, respect, trust, etc.). A gospel centered marriage would make everyone happy. A gospel centered temple marriage would make everyone happy. A gospel centered civil marriage would make everyone happy. But I did not have that, I just had a temple marriage that was abusive and destructive to my soul and my kids’. It did not work for me. God did not expect me to stay in that situation, just like he did not expect Nephi to stay in his situation when Laman and Lemuel were persecuting him…so Nephi left. The gospel allows us to make those choices, but while we make those choices, the gospel teaches us where our heart should be as we consider consequences of choices.

Other people may believe that temple ordinance is necessary for happiness. I believe they are talking about going to live in the CK as taught by the church in the context of some teachings by some prophets at some point in time. They are not talking about the only way to find happiness. Any GA would agree that there are plenty of happy marriages outside the temple. Perhaps privately, if not over the pulpit.

And here is the beauty of the gospel…if I don’t get sealed in the temple in this life…I can still go to the CK! Because temple work and proxy for the dead make it possible for all worthy people who want to live a gospel centered life will not be denied the opportunity. THerefore, happiness is the end goal of the gospel, no matter the earthly temporal and temporary situations. God wants us to become gospel centered. That is His Plan of Happiness, despite personal circumstance that varies.

That’s my best shot at trying to explain my point on the gospel culture…and that I respect your experience and point of view…as long as we know it is not others’ experiences or points of view…and therefore…what is taught at church or by DHO as gospel culture is truth, when understood correctly with correct context and correct underlying principles.

Typically, I would leave it at that, and not converse longer with another person, especially if I am getting to the point they are exhausted with my talking. (I hope not :shifty: )

But on this thread, I enjoy discussing it more because I believe other readers can understand there is value to challenging our thoughts and definitions, and that nuance has a place in working through our challenge to stayLDS, or not to stayLDS and just to walk away from church in a positive tone. (and also because others will skip over or stop reading 2 or 3 pages ago if I’m beating the dead horse and they don’t care about it anymore).

But if you are not completely exhausted by me, please respond to my stuff if I should clarify further or you still disagree with parts, and please answer two questions for me:

1) Why do others’ versions of the gospel matter to your journey and happiness?

2) I am not sealed to my wife. We have a civil marriage. I hold a TR, she does not. With your definitions of the gospel, and your experiences with what GAs would say, how would they respond if I told them I have happiness and am comfortable that I am on the path to eternal happiness and have a testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ as I am now? I have NEVER been happier! I promise I am telling the truth. So what would a GA tell me?

(Perhaps talking about a specific example like this that is personal to me might help our discussion add meaning to our words).

[Anonymous]

Please recognize that with the exception of quoting facts about what exists in the handbook, well researched statistics, or historical facts (when verifiable) just about what anyone says is opinion here. That for me, is a forgone conclusion. Even in my quote I said “I don’t think”….which indicates what followed was my opinion.

Heber13 wrote:

1) Why do others’ versions of the gospel matter to your journey and happiness?

Years ago they mattered because as a young man, without a lot of confidence or knowledge of what this life or the life beyond is all about, I trusted people who seemed to know. Very influential people whose opinions mattered to me. I trusted them and made critical life decisions on what they said, and what they implied they meant. Same reason people are concerned about what their parents think.

Today, their opinions matter as I am part of their culture. Their opinions drive their behavior, and that behavior affects me. It affects my marriage, and in some areas of the world, I hear it can even affect your job. I have to deal with the implications of their belief in the gospel of happiness — they are at me for high pressure callings, call me stubborn when I say “no”, or chastise me when they want me to to do things I don’t want to do.

Quote:

2) I am not sealed to my wife. We have a civil marriage. I hold a TR, she does not. With your definitions of the gospel, and your experiences with what GAs would say, how would they respond if I told them I have happiness and am comfortable that I am on the path to eternal happiness and have a testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ as I am now? I have NEVER been happier! I promise I am telling the truth. So what would a GA tell me?

I can only speculate as I’m not a GA and don’t have their full perspective. Plus, they are all different and have different personalities, level of caring, etcetera.

Further you haven’t presented a problem for the GA. You said you are happy.

In the absence of a problem, I don’t think the GA would care much about it. Or he would infer a problem, and give you hope that someday your wife will come around. Or that God will work out all these exceptions that the standard gospel can’t resolve. I don’t know.

So, take everything I say as personal opinion. I’m happy for my opinion to co-exist along other people’s opinions that are contrary to mine, provided their opinions don’t require me to do things I don’t want to do or think are harmful to me personally or people for whom I am responsible. And in an online world like this, nothing anyone says here influences how my life runs without my consent. So, ultimately, it is like online, interactive journal writing where I come away with my own opinions.

My opinion in this thread is that the gospel has not been a success as a happiness formula in my case. It wouldn’t surprise me if that is true for many other people. At the same time, I think it works masterfully for other people, like my daughter, for example (so far). It seems to work for my wife and her parents. So I will support them in it. But you won’t find me preaching that the gospel makes you happy. I personally don’t believe it and like to teach/speak about what I am. If asked to talk about the gospel of happiness, I would have to put a spin on it like no one has heard before.

And the funny thing about that is that if such a talk is like others I have given, people will come away telling me it’s a really good talk. Because it will make them think about their life in a way that doesn’t nullify their belief in the gospel of happiness, while expanding their idea about how to achieve happiness in this life.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

Supposing that we could agree on this definition for “the gospel”, what then would be gospel culture?

It seems like, we were starting from the article SD posted, where DHO kind of defined “gospel culture” as this:

Quote:

As a way to help us keep the commandments of God, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have what we call a gospel culture. It is a distinctive way of life, a set of values and expectations and practices common to all members. This gospel culture comes from the plan of salvation, the commandments of God, and the teachings of the living prophets….

When it comes to giving up false traditions and cultures, we praise our younger people for their flexibility and progress, and we appeal to our older members to put away traditions and cultural or tribal practices that lead them away from the path of growth and progress. We ask all to climb to the higher ground of the gospel culture, to practices and traditions that are rooted in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

[/quote]

Unfortunately, if we define Gospel culture as that then I am out of the discussion. He seems to be meaning church culture. A culture where we do not schedule anything on Monday. A culture where immodest dress is eschewed. A culture where having a beer after work is verboten. The church culture helps us to live the standards of the community because there is a significant amount of peer pressure to conform within the group.

He is vague in talking about giving up “false traditions and cultures” but I believe that he is saying to stop doing things that are holdovers from previous heritage and cultures and instead to replace those things with LDS church culture and traditions.

[Anonymous]

Roy…you make a great point…and taking it back to that article is a good way to clarify what we are talking about. Because I think we got off track with how some people “feel” or interpret what was said…not what was really said.

And, for the most part, I agree that how you framed it all does seem to be what he is talking about. At first glance, perhaps that is the message.

But honestly…if we try hard to listen from our point of view at what he could really be saying about “gospel” then I think we can avoid the trap of just assuming that church and gospel are the same and everyone at church believes that. Because I think that is when we get into trouble because it doesn’t make sense to us.

Why would he use the word “gospel” if he was meaning “church”? Don’t you think there is a very good reason different words are used? I totally cling to that. If he wanted them to be the same, he should have used the same…but he didn’t…so I have my view and feel totally honest I am seeking the teachings of an apostle.

He is stating:

Quote:

It is a distinctive way of life, a set of values and expectations and practices common to all members.

In my opinion, this is where people get tripped up. They start making sweeping statements of how it “feels” at church there is pressure to conform and it “seems” like there is no wiggle room or option. To go further, asking for opinions from leaders compounds the problem, because then in one converstaion (limited by language to expound deep ideas) you are getting someone at church to sum up an idea in words…and then we walk away from the bishop’s office saying…”the church says that”. And that isn’t the “gospel”…it isn’t even the whole “church”…it is one volunteer dude trying his best in one conversation to express one set of ideas in one context being discussed. Yet…we walk away with limited ideas and lazily say…”that is what the church teaches so I want to make no further effort to reconcile it.”

And we shift the blame from our spiritual struggle internally with God to the opinions of others at church…we want their validation and when we don’t get it…we think there is no other way to resolve it.

The ultimate issue is how people are placing limitations on themselves, with assumptions, feelings, and how things “seem” to be in the church. I truly believe there are fewer limitations to being mormon than many people think. I think people get caught up in one or two issues…which may be church culture and tradition and limited application of teachings…and don’t get to a Stage 5 conjunctive faith that allows for paradox and layers of truth and variation in experience and application of truly Christ-taught principles. Instead…they are talking about coffee and home teaching and family home evening.

But the gospel…is about internalizing principles. God does not want us to be commanded in all things. He wants us to understand the true principles and live it best we can, repenting when we screw up. We cannot figure it out alone, we go to church to get support and learning and others’ perspectives so we can get taught and supported. But ultimately it is how we live it that matters. And others are doing that too.

That all being said…I believe we get ourselves trapped in the snares of the evil one when we start to think church = gospel, and when we start thinking there is no place in the church for us because everyone else is so perfect and I can’t live that way. The reality is…there is an orchestra, a choir, or whatever analogy you want to use to show there are many differences in the church on specific things.

So…while the church culture may be strict, and just take DHO with what he said, and assume he means there is only one way…the gospel culture is to know the spirit of the laws, the principles behind teachings, and apply them to life with honesty and sincerity and love, and see that there is a right way and wrong way for our heart to turn to church commandments.

I truly believe that if one dude decides he will drink coffee, but is the salt of the earth loving and serving and kind and gentle and goes to church and does whatever he is asked to do…the ward members will fully accept him, even if he gets judged by some and he knows how to handle that and love others…the culture at church is that people who are good people are welcomed and accepted. Even if a bishop denies that dude a TR, but he doesn’t care, he is focused on being a loving servant of God and love everyone he comes in contact with, and if the bishop challenges him to stop drinking coffee…but he says he feels ok where he is at…he may not have certain callings, he may not have a TR, but…people will be ok with him when they know his heart is good…they just disagree with his practice of drinking coffee.

That man can decide to be offended by not being a bishop. Or he could be offended by not being able to go to the temple and see his kids married. He may be offended the bishop is telling him he is wrong.

If those offenses are enough for him to just give in and stop drinking coffee to avoid those things…great. If not…and he doesn’t see a need to…then the culture of the gospel is that he will be a mormon and people will know him for who he is…not one or two differences in how he lives.

Do you not think this happens all the time at church?? It does.

For example…

Roy wrote:

A culture where we do not schedule anything on Monday. A culture where immodest dress is eschewed.

Or what about things like read scriptures daily, go to 3 hours of church, pray morning and night, attend seminary…the list goes on and on. And…some people don’t do all of those things, do they? How many testimonies are about people trying to recommit to reading the scriptures daily as a family??? Are they perfect? No. Should they be doing this, as DHO said to have standard practices members follow? Yes. When they don’t do it perfectly do they get literally shunned? No (I’m not saying there isn’t peer pressure…but who cares what others say or judge us by…we ALL do this in the church).

THere are way way way too many things we could all possibly do that could be included in a church culture that it is literally impossible to do it all.

So…everyone does best they can. They pick and choose the best ones and give on some they feel are not as important as other things. They feel guilt they can’t do more…and then they go to church and remind themselves that Christ says they can’t do it all and cut themselves slack.

It is an ongoing part of church and pushing ourselves to be better while accepting we will never be perfect.

SD summed it up for me by answering the question I posed to him…

SilentDawning wrote:

Some idiot named Heber13 wrote:

With your definitions of the gospel, and your experiences with what GAs would say, how would they respond if I told them I have happiness and am comfortable that I am on the path to eternal happiness and have a testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ as I am now? I have NEVER been happier! I promise I am telling the truth. So what would a GA tell me?

I can only speculate as I’m not a GA and don’t have their full perspective. Plus, they are all different and have different personalities, level of caring, etcetera.

Further you haven’t presented a problem for the GA. You said you are happy.

In the absence of a problem, I don’t think the GA would care much about it. Or he would infer a problem, and give you hope that someday your wife will come around. Or that God will work out all these exceptions that the standard gospel can’t resolve. I don’t know.

If I am happy, and live the gospel principles…people at church will be fine with me.

If I feel peer pressure to conform to how OTHERS SEE IT and don’t like that…that is something I deal with in my life. I can search ways to resolve it and bring my behavior in line with others, or I can feel OK my life is on track and acceptable to God, and ignore the judgments of other imperfect people who are on their own journey.

But if I’m happy…and don’t present a problem to a GA, SP, Bishop, HTer or friend at church…then…they would not care much about it. So neither should I…and I don’t need to assume I am not welcome in church when others are more likely to accept me than I might tell myself internally with fears and feelings of non-conformity.

My internal fears do not equate to church culture and what people at church think.

That is the culture I see.

The gospel culture is all the shared values we are all trying to live. And we have to apply them to our lives and live them honestly so we progress spiritually and understand God’s will.

There is just so much variation to it, that we should not limit our thinking to what we project out of fear on to others or the church.

Be good. Be happy. Love others and love god. All other things fall into place with adhering to those 2 great commandments, as DJ said…that is the gospel simplified. All other appendages are to be wrestled with in proper light so that we can reconcile them with others without violating those 2 great commandments.

It is not easy. But it starts with letting go of what others think of us, and focusing on the gospel…and we can see that gospel culture is there at church, sometimes despite the church culture that is also there to give us opposition and trials, that we may learn what was told to Adam…”In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread” all the days of our life.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for sharing your perspective Heber.

I especially found this last part helpful.

Heber13 wrote:

It is not easy. But it starts with letting go of what others think of us, and focusing on the gospel…and we can see that gospel culture is there at church, sometimes despite the church culture that is also there to give us opposition and trials, that we may learn what was told to Adam…”In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread” all the days of our life.

[Author]

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