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My 14 year old daughter just started seminary recently. Today she came home and told me that they had learned about the 3 Degrees of Glory. She questioned me about it. She asked if there wasn’t a way for people to progress between kingdoms, because that’s what she had learned and she really just could not believe that part of it. The degrees of Glory make more sense… more than just a heaven/hell paradigm. But she couldn’t believe that once you die, your score is tallied and you get assigned and stuck there for eternity. This is something that I had almost always had trouble with, and after I became a parent felt it was just unacceptable. When I was her age I was also taught that there was no progression between kingdoms. Whatever you did in this life is it and you were stuck with it. Also, you had to be almost perfect to reach the Celestial. At the same time we were taught that no one was perfect, not even the profit. This was a paradox that led to me think “then why even try?” So you get one shot at achieving this near perfect state, and some of us would get 90 years to work on it, and some would get 9. We would all be born into different circumstances, some good, most bad, and too many so hostile that almost no one could survive spiritually. But no matter what, whatever the hand you were dealt, even if you had 90 years, 90 years ends up to be much too short and you had to achieve that by the day you die or you are stuck. Oh well too bad you had your shot. End of story.
I think I sort of hit on this somewhere in a post before, but I thought that from a parenting perspective that just doesn’t make sense. This is like taking a bunch of my children when they are only say 5 years old and dropping them off in the middle of the major city 30 miles away and saying “come find me” and leaving. There are freeways and busy streets and extreme temperatures and some good people and a lot of bad people. All of the dangers of a big city. Not only that, but I wipe their memory clean. They don’t even know they have a home, let alone how to get there. One child or two might have an innate sense of danger vs good and they might seek out good strangers who might have a map and might teach them to read it and set them in the right direction. Others will run into bad people who beat, rape and/or murder them. Whether they were ones with the map or not, some will be hit by cars. Some will drown in streams. Some will die of starvation or the elements. And maybe if I am very lucky one might remember something and use the good strangers and maps and make it home again. But how many kids do I have to have for the odds of even one making it home again? And as to the ones who perished along the way “Oh well too bad they had their shot”?? Really? Perhaps I am being jaded or something idk what to call it but I don’t think so. This is how I see it.
To me, losing even one of my children is completely unacceptable and there is no way I would damn a single one for eternal progression EVER. Even after death. Even if it took them 50,000 years to figure it out. There is no “sorry you had your shot.” I have a deeper perspective of this because according to the church I have spiritually “lost” 2 children already. If they were to die today they would be written off for the eternities. My 2 oldest sons are 21 and 20. They have gone against almost EVERYTHING I ever taught them. About life, about the gospel– I sometimes sit in awe that these are the same two precious little babies I held and treasured so much and sacrificed so much for to raise them in the Gospel and to teach them to be responsible adults, and productive people; responsibly members of society. They have both screwed up very badly. Their lives are on such paths of destruction that I cannot even watch. But if one of them were to come back to me and say “Mom, I screwed up. I went through rehab, I am going to school and I am going to fix my life.” You think I would tell them “Sorry hon, it’s too late. You had your shot.”?? I would be on the phone that minute arranging every bit of help and support I could think of. Yes, I understand that through the power of atonement, this can be happen… as long as it is exercised in this life. We can get that second, or third or 78th shot. But only if we live long enough to exist past our own personal learning curves– however long those take. If we are indeed shut off from progressing between kingdoms, then we are shut off from eternal progression because our very short and clouded time in this terrible, dangerous place was the only shot we ever get. I think this is unacceptable. If I, as an imperfect parent would never shut off one on my children, neither in this life nor the next, how could our Heavenly Father; who is a perfect parent?
I do not want to hear of the prodigal son in this context. I do not believe it is applicable. We are eternal beings and our purpose is to continue to learn and grow for eternities. The only way this makes sense to me is that we all get eternity to do this thing and never at any point, even after death, we will be shut off from walking with our Father. I told my daughter what I think. I think that we are all on our own journey, which started before we came to this place. Because of our decisions and the states in which we are, we all may take different amounts of time to reach our place of celestial glory. Some may take for example 10 or our years to reach that place. Some may take another 2000. But I do not believe that a perfect father would ever say you only get one shot and if you don’t make it to the highest level, that’s it. You are screwed. I cannot accept this doctrine.
I did tell her though, that I did not think it would be good for the average person to think they had the eternities to even get started though, because they would not do it, and they need to know that what we do here DOES matter. That they can’t just go around in this life doing whatever they think or feel they want because too many other people will get hurt. People do need a sense that here and now does matter and they can’t afford to screw around as much as they want and think they can just fix it next life. So I thought that could be a reason the church teaches the finite and absolute one chance scenario. At the same time, I cannot condone teaching a false principle, if indeed it is a false principle, even if it is for the right reasons.
So, I come to you all on this to help me get perspective on this. Do I misunderstand the doctrine? Is this something that the church has backpedaled on and I (and my daughter’s seminary teacher) was just not paying attention? (There have been other things I was taught that were changed and are not taught now, of course.) What is everyone else’s thoughts and feelings? Am I way far out there with all this?
It generally is ignored in “official” publications and talks. I personally think the kingdoms are a very good description of eternal progression, not immediate, unchanging destinations.
I have a couple of thoughts: a. I believe that is going to be more revealed about this topic & others that we believe are “written in stone”.
b. God is God & things sometimes change.
I like the way you responded to your daughter:
Quote:I did tell her though, that I did not think it would be good for the average person to think they had the eternities to even get started though, because they would not do it, and they need to know that what we do here DOES matter. That they can’t just go around in this life doing whatever they think or feel they want because too many other people will get hurt. People do need a sense that here and now does matter and they can’t afford to screw around as much as they want and think they can just fix it next life. So I thought that could be a reason the church teaches the finite and absolute one chance scenario. At the same time, I cannot condone teaching a false principle, if indeed it is a false principle, even if it is for the right reasons.
Good one.
Mike from Milton.
I certainly think the three kingdoms are more positive than orthodox Christian doctrine. Quote:She asked if there wasn’t a way for people to progress between kingdoms, because that’s what she had learned and she really just could not believe that part of it. The degrees of Glory make more sense… more than just a heaven/hell paradigm. But she couldn’t believe that once you die, your score is tallied and you get assigned and stuck there for eternity.
Well, if families are sealed together, and that works then there must be. We’re not all equally worthy.
I was just posting about this in another thread – Quote:One day I ran head long into the dichotomy of Grace vs. Tiered Salvation. It didn’t make sense to me! If grace fills the gap then how do some people receive grace but not enough for exaltation?
Some good friends here gave me an interface concept. If grace covers our mistakes as long as we keep our faces towards the source of the light AND grace forestalls our personal final judgment until we have either reached our full potential or stopped progressing by our own fully informed choice to turn away from the source of light and quit trying THEN grace and tiered salvation/eternal progression can occupy the same space in my head.
The more detailed explanations from my original dichotomy moment and the wonderful perspectives offered on this board can be found here:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2288&hilit=wins&start=20 It is good stuff!
:thumbup: Even in the days when I was a complete believer, I would have said that there’s much more to our “judgment” than we can understand based on the idea that there has to be the last guy to make it into the the Celestial Kingdom and the first guy that didn’t quite make it and went to the Terrestrial Kingdom instead. Out of all the people that have ever lived, how can you distinguish between those two? I’ll add to that my perspective as a non-complete-believer. If I had died when I was 30… probably, I would have been looking at the Celestial Kingdom, and the highest degree of glory. If I died today, I’d most definitely be headed for the Terrestrial Kingdom. At that rate, if I hold on for another 30-40 years, I’d project into the Telestial Kingdom.
From a pure logic standpoint, it doesn’t make sense, just like Heaven and Hell don’t make sense for the same reasons.
From a doctrinal standpoint, I would argue that Jesus spoke of “The Kingdom of God” right here on the earth, in his time and place. I think that shows a precedent that “kingdom” can be more of a spiritual, inner-self, and introspective concept. So, in that same vein, perhaps “kingdoms” and “degrees of glory” don’t imply any physical, but rather spiritual separation. If so, it’s not your address in the hereafter, but how you live your afterlife that matters. If this is the case, I would argue that anyone can progress, and also that they can digress.
In the medieval period of LDS history (between JS and, let’s say, Gordon B Hinkley), we dogmatized everything. We spoke of this life as a “test” to “see if we would obey the commandments”. But I don’t think JS thought of it in that way at all. Rather, this life offered opportunities to stand on our own, learn and grow, and attain godliness, similar to when we push our teenagers out the door, shaking our head and wondering if they will ever make it, only to have them wind up surprising us by stepping up to the challenge, becoming independent and capable and living their own lives.
I’m not offering this as my own opinion, but rather what I think a TBM / apologist would say. In 1980, Elder Bruce McKonkie gave his fairly well known “Seven Deadly Heresies” talk at BYU. He directly addressed the issue of “Kingdom hopping,” or progress from one kingdom to another, and called it one of the deadly heresies in the Church:
Quote:Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=658http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=658” class=”bbcode_url”> He goes on to state:
Quote:This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, “God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?” It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.
The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies—some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.
Of those in the telestial world it is written: “And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end” (D&C 76:112).
Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says:
Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16–17]
They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.
Any doctrine other than this renders our obedience and faithfulness in this life meaningless. Why be righteous and do good works here if I can live a riotous life and still end up progressing through the eternities?
And despite our concept of God as all-powerful, we are taught that even he must obey certain laws, or as the BOM says, “God will cease to be god.” While God may have more love for all of his children than we can even imagine, he is powerless to open the gates of the Celestial Kingdom to any but those who have qualified for it. Does that break his heart? I’m sure it does. But can he stop it? No. Just as parents on earth can love their kids beyond measure, parents may not remove the natural consequences of a child’s actions – gravity, physics, chemistry and biology cannot be altered by sheer love alone.
Again, I’m not saying this is right or wrong; just what a TBM would say regarding progressing from kingdom to kingdom.
Yep, that would be a traditional, orthodox answer. Thanks for putting it out there, so I can dismiss it for now and work on my alternative view. :shh: 
Seriously, though, I appreciate you sharing it, since it is a common response. Just because I disagree with it doesn’t mean it is illogical or doesn’t work for lots and lots of people. Since we are dealing in the realm of complete faith (the unknown) with this topic, that view can be just as legitimate for many people as mine is for me.
The only thing that rings true with me about McKonkie’s talk is that it does go with my line of thinking that it would not be good for the average person to think they had forever, because they wouldn’t do it. I know myself that I am a self motivated person. I am one of the few who can do a work-at-you-own-pace type of thing and most people can’t. I am built to be self-employed and most people are not. It’s not that they are worse or I am better. Just most people need deadlines. But it doesn’t work for me in any other sense. I have known bad people who have become “good” and the opposite. Where they would go would depend largely on when they were taken, over which they have no control– like On Own Now was saying. And I do not even think God can always control when we go especially when free agency is involved. As He Himself states that He cannot limit free agency because He would cease to be God. So someone who is killed in a drunk driving accident in a good phase of their lives goes to the celestial kingdom; even though if next year he would have fallen away and started giving into a sex addiction. A the guy in the next car was just having a really bad year and cursed god that morning; but, would have gone on to be one of the strongest best people ever who served everyone. He goes to a lower level. I guess what I am saying is where we are at any giving moment in our lives is not necessarily indicative of the entire path of our lives. So that is one problem.
The other problem I have is that there are those who die as children or those who were not introduced to the Gospel. They seriously were not exposed to the same “tests” as the rest of us. Heck, even the rest of us are not exposed to the same tests as each other. I have not ever struggled with same sex attraction, for example, so it is very easy for me to say I have lived that law perfectly. Why should I be judged as being righteous in that principle? I was never given that temptation to overcome. That doesn’t make me more righteous than someone who does struggle with it and even gives in. Conversely, there are many who know that God is there for them, and so it is easier for them to have a personal relationship with God than the state I am currently in. They have not been ostracized from the church because of rumors and other things. It is easier for them to go than it is for me. Are they really better than me? Anyway, I know what I would be told about all of this… that God knows what each of these people would have done with their lives had they lived long enough and they will be judged based on that. Excuse me here, but then what the hell are we really here for then? If God knew what we would all do, then all of the divine effort he put into creating this entire earth and all our bodies and all that we experienced was for what? A really big exercise in redundancy? So He knew but we had to come to prove it only to ourselves? I can’t think that we as spirit children would have sat there at God’s feet while He told us of our fates we would have said, “Nuh-uh God! We don’t believe you! We will prove it to you!”
If God knew what we would do He would not have needed to waste so much divine energy just to prove His point. If He did not know what we would do, how can a child be judged for what they would have done? How would someone who never heard the Gospel be judged on what they would have done?
And to clarify a point above, since we are all given wildly different tests, the only way a jugement would be fair is if we were ALL judged based on what we would have done if we had been given all other tests. The only way I could be judged for example and receive the blessings of not having a gay relationship is if I would have been judged based on what I would have done if I had been given the test of that attraction. And then it all comes back to the same argument of judging people without a fair test and it just doesn’t seem to hold water.
*as an aside, I am in no way condemning gay people. I am just using this as an example since the church has a very clear stance on this issue. I really don’t know what to think about it at this point, just as I do not know what to think about so many other things I was always taught anymore.
Also, the concept of time as we are taught defies logical final judgement. They say that time does not exist to God; that it is only an illusion created by the finite capacity of the mortal’s mind. If that is the case, then why would God use TIME, and a very short one besides, to damn us eternally if TIME does not exist for him? It just seems logical in that case that this “time for a test” is simply a mortal’s creation as well.
I just can’t fathom it. You are going to take a test. The instructor does not give instruction to more than 99% of the class. A few are handed a cheat sheet. Out of all of them, some are not going to have been taught to read. Some will not have pencils to write. Some only have basic easy answers to figure out while some must solve complex equations. Everyone gets a different time to do it all. Some 3 minutes, some several days. And when it’s all over whatever your final answers are determines your forever destiny. Oh well. Too bad to those who failed. You should have found a way, no matter what you were given, to come to the same answers. You all got the same shot. Right?
I just can’t accept that God, who is a perfect father, would be OK with only getting a very small fraction of his children back, who can actually walk with Him again. It seems to be that the “stuck forever” idea smacks of creating a slave race, not children.
I like On Own Now’s Point… maybe the Dogma of the “test” is not what it was ever meant to be about. That is the only conclusion I seem to be able to come to. But since it at least -WAS- a major teaching cornerstone in the doctrine, it is very hard to just say “They are wrong.” But I am pretty sure they are. I think I am OK with becoming a heretic. Scary times!
Kumahito wrote:Quote:
Of those in the telestial world it is written: “And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end” (D&C 76:112).Quote:Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
poor angel Moroni, let us all obtain more righteousness then him, so we aren’t as lowly as he is.
Any doctrine other than this renders our obedience and faithfulness in this life meaningless. Why be righteous and do good works here if I can live a riotous life and still end up progressing through the No. Just as parents on earth can love their kids beyond measure, parents may not remove the natural consequences of a child’s actions – gravity, physics, chemistry and biology cannot be altered by sheer love alone.
So what would explain explain the violation of the law of phyisic and gravity with the parting of the red sea?
Some paradoxes are best left unexplained, they simply create far more paradoxes then they answer. Of course then you get to the ultimate paradox of “does the inanimate particle universe give birth to laws such as “justice and mercy” or does god, or the god/gods before him?
:shifty: Personally I think some of BRM’s comments can be more fully explained with the idea that this earth life establishes our personal habits. If we put off our progression until the next life that sets as our precedent a sort of laziness that will be extra hard to overcome, and effectively we damn ourselves with our habits. On the other hand if we experience all kinds of changes, deal with what seem to be insurmountable obstacles, and always move in a positive direction even as we experience falls and setbacks and feel like we have failed ourselves — then we place ourselves in a mode of progression that heaven nor hell will be able to block. My own thought is eternity is way too long of a time to limit anyone to anything. If we are able to pick ourselves up in this life I can’t see any reason why we will be less enabled in the “real” life of eternity.
Yes RagDollSally, This doctrine, much like that of eternal marriage, is a beautiful principle – but it doesn’t explain everything and in many situations simply begins to fall apart.
RagDollSallyUT wrote:The other problem I have is that there are those who die as children or those who were not introduced to the Gospel. They seriously were not exposed to the same “tests” as the rest of us.
I have put a good amount of thought and research into this one issue of the salvation of little children. All of your points are good but some of the things I can point out about this one issue may clarify for the others.
Our Doctrine is that little children are alive in Christ. Period. Full Stop.
Now how does that work with the need for this life to be a proving ground? Well JS said some things about these spirits being too pure for the process of this life. Is that doctrine? Nope – never did get cannonized! If JS was speaking as the prophet or just as a man at the time is up to us to determine individually through the spirit. The official doctrine is that we don’t know.
There have been many statements from Joseph F. Smith and others that these little children progressed to such a degree in the pre-mortal life to make a mortal probation unnecessary. Is that doctrine? Nope. The official doctrine is that we just don’t know.
Now to drill down further to my own little pet issue. What about stillbirths and miscarriages? Do they count?
BY said that the spirit enters the body in the mother’s womb at a moment of quickening that the mother can often feel. Is that doctrine? Nope – we just don’t know.
Well what about current practice and policy? The CHI states:
Quote:Stillborn Children (Children Who Die before Birth)
Temple ordinances are not performed for stillborn children. However, this does not deny the possibility that a stillborn child may be part of the family in the eternities. Parents are encouraged to trust the Lord to resolve such cases in the way He knows is best. The family may record the name of a stillborn child on the family group record, followed by the word stillborn in parentheses.
Memorial or graveside services may be held as determined by the parents.
It is a fact that a child has life before birth. However, there is no direct revelation on when the spirit enters the body.
To reiterate – no temple ordinances for stillborn children. They may be listed on the family group sheet….or not. A funeral may be held…or not. Do they count as a human soul? “no direct revelation” means that we don’t know.
As a parent of a stillborn daughter searching for answers…did my daughter receive her spirit? Is it possible for a living fetus to not have a connection to a spirit – not be a complete soul, not be a candidate for resurrection, not hold a place in the family circle? We don’t know, we don’t know, and we don’t know.
The answer is that the Lord will resolve such cases as He knows is best and that He has not revealed unto us what that is.
Ok, thanks for indulging my little tangent.
The three degrees of glory is a beautiful construct. It is light years ahead of the traditional heaven/hell model especially when you throw in the unbaptized infants going to hell. How might all the mechanics work or is it just a shadow of the way things really are in the realms of glory? We don’t know.
I guess a major part of my faith journey these last few years has been to get comfortable with Hope without Knowledge.
Lately I have began to believe in reincarnation and multiple tries at life. It make a lot of sense if mortal life is supposed to be school. We would need to live in many different circumstances to truly be an expert. It’s funny you say this. I have thought if your goal was soul building/learning it actually makes much more logical sense than the LDS model. I am going to write out some maybe silly ideas I have had here but they are thoughts that I entertain. I thought back to before I was a parent. I had all these opinions on everything from strollers and pacifiers and diapers to discipline. Then my first son was born. I realized that I hadn’t known a thing, but now I was worse. Because I was a parent and I had experience, I thought for sure I knew how it worked. I was even more opinionated and judgmental than before. Then I had my second son. He was so different than the first. It was then I realized that I didn’t really know anything at all.
The more I have seen people in my life, from ages 19 to 91, people seem to be this way. I thought if it was true how they taught me in Sunday school, that when each of us was called to come to this place we were told “you are going to go down to a handicapped body’ or “you are going to go to this abusive family” or whatever, of course we would have jumped at the chance as they say we did. We had NO concept of what it would be like and what we would be getting into! But then as we are born and we grow, we realize life is hard. But then people really become know-it-alls and it only gets worse with age. (As a general rule- always exceptions!) People assume because something in their life has always worked a certain way, they cannot possibly fathom that it does not work that way for everyone.
It seems to me that one life isn’t nearly enough and we are possibly “worse” after just having one. I thought that the only way we could really get an accurate sampling of life is either to live multiple lives, or to have something close to a vulcan mind meld/borg sharing of consciousness type of thing after our journey here. Everyone comes down here, everyone has their experience, and everyone reports back. But we couldn’t just share in a verbal or even visual report. It wouldn’t be enough as far as communication and learning in concerned. We each would have to actually be able to experience each others feelings, to see through each other’s eyes, as if we were that person.
I really don’t like the idea of reincarnation because I can’t think of too many other words other than “hell” for the thought that I have to come back here and go through all this pain and hell AGAIN. I would tend to stick with my latter idea, but really if it was done in such a way that we truly experienced all experiences of others, it would be exactly like having those multiple lives anyway. The net effect would be the same. IDK. I just know that I am tired of learning through pain. Can’t I learn from good things for a while? Or can’t I learn from boredom? Lots of people have boring lives! I am tired of hearing that you-learn-from-pain-crap mostly spouted from people who have generally little pain in their lives! OK sorry for the rant… give me a moment while I reign in my negativity and become my positive self again…
I have often thought if you were going to build a utopia… how would you do it? You would need to gather a people who had not one slightest inclination for any type of sin. Not an easy task! There could not only be no lying, stealing, cheating and murder, but there could not be any envy, greed, intolerance etc. Everyone would have to be focused purely in heart on serving the greater good. How do you do this? You would have to train an entire population to eradicate every single tiny sin. You would have to teach them pure and perfect love. How do you do this?
A thought occurred to me when I was in my 20’s that has stuck with me and keeps seeming to remain true. I thought about all the pain I had experienced in my life. 100% of every whit of pain I had ever experienced aside from ILLNESS and ACCIDENTS (which I would include weather with accidents) had come from SIN. Not always mine, but SOMEONE’S sin. Sin is the root of almost all pain. Illness and accidents come from being mortal, nothing can be done about that in this realm. But sin is so much more prevalent than we imagine. (If anyone else has an idea how this paradigm should be changed or altered please feel free to add. I am open.) Even the headaches of life. Small things caused by someone somewhere not doing their jobs, to big things like adultery and murder. Even poverty is born of sin. It is not always the sin of the person who suffers it. It may be crooked corporations or politicians. (Some poverty can be caused by weather, but that would be the exception not the rule.) I used to believe what the world would have us believe, that poverty is from not having enough to go around, but then I studied and found that one small section of the earth is capable of producing enough food in a few short months to feed the world many times over, and I learned so much more about reality. It”s not resources, it’s the unequal distribution, which is…
sin. Corporations shut down farms world wide and cause people to buy only from them, which causes shortages etc. Sin. But even consider illness and accidents. The proper distribution of resources would heal a lot of illness. In the event of accident/weather problems, even those could be greatly treated. Sin=suffering. Maybe not the sinner’s. Sometimes but not always. It is true what they say that sin is unhappiness. It’s just a rather egocentric interpretation to think that OUR sin equals OUR direct unhappiness. It’s much more complex than that. Anyway,to purify a population, you would need to eradicate all sin in every form. Probably the only way to effectively do this would be to have each person suffer the effects from every type of sin in all it’s various forms. One would also need to be exposed to love and benefit and perform sacrifices. All good things and all bad things and all the ripple effects they cause. One life wouldn’t be enough. It would take an entire population of individuals and every possible learning experience. You would need the entire human experience from every angle. So my borg consciousness theory would work here. Multiple lives might work as well so long as each person had enough lives to experience really pretty much everything. But that’s a lot of lives. If each person did experience all this, they would eventually evolve into a being who has lost all appetite for selfishness and whose every action is about love. In other words, God. The collection of beings would constitute Utopia. In other words, the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. And then what? What would be left but to help other beings achieve this state? In other words, we become Gods whose purpose is to “parent” other beings. And that does fit the LDS model.
In my thoughts there is very little room for hell (as taught) or permanent judgement of any type. It defies all that I know to be true from a parenting perspective. It defies everything I feel in my core. I cannot believe a father would create billions of children to throw so very many away. It’s like he gives them life just to literally throw them in the garbage. To be limited from progression is hell. I don’t think that is anyone’s purpose.
I can and do believe in temporary hells. I believe when our eyes are opened to the things we have done we suffer through hell. I think we pay by truly understanding, not just hearing of or seeing the effects of our actions, but
experiencingthe full effects of our actions as if in the first hand. In this way, each and every one of us must suffer through hell. I am not sure where the atonement comes in, but I have to think the only way we could really learn would be to really experience it and understand it from a “victim” perspective. I also think sin is like potential energy in it’s effects, not actual consequences. For example, one may have an adulterous affair and maybe no one else ever found out so there is no “pain effect’ to others. While another may have an adulterous affair and it causes maximum devastation. Let’s say a man contracts AIDS and brings it home to his nursing wife. Not only the baby and wife and he all die a very painful long death but the whole community finds out and ostracizes them and the other woman’s family is also similarly destroyed. The sin is the same for each person, but what they pay wouldn’t be unless the sin was judged on potential consequences instead of actual consequences. And it is true that as they teach us, we can choose our actions but we cannot choose the consequences. Even if we fool ourselves into thinking we can. So in my mind, hell cannot be a permanent state. If anything we probably pay our hells here. In my mind, permanent judgement just cannot be. It must be that even the people who commit the worst possible sins will pay for them and then learn from them and eventually grow. I am not convinced of my borg theory nor the multiple life scenario, but I do know the “one blind shot and you’re out” idea cannot possibly be. I just can’t buy it.
All good thoughts on this thread. I think Roy sums up my feelings well:
Quote:The three degrees of glory is a beautiful construct. It is light years ahead of the traditional heaven/hell model especially when you throw in the unbaptized infants going to hell. How might all the mechanics work or is it just a shadow of the way things really are in the realms of glory? We don’t know.
I guess a major part of my faith journey these last few years has been to get comfortable with Hope without Knowledge.
:thumbup:
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