The Evil World

[Anonymous]

Of course, once again, the general evil world theme was clearly on display several times in the latest conference including the following examples:

L. Tom Perry wrote:

…Today we find ourselves in another war. This is not a war of armaments. It is a war of thoughts, words, and deeds. It is a war with sin, and more than ever we need to be reminded of the commandments. Secularism is becoming the norm, and many of its beliefs and practices are in direct conflict with those that were instituted by the Lord Himself for the benefit of His children…One way to measure ourselves and compare us to previous generations is by one of the oldest standards known to man—the Ten Commandments…In my judgment, four of the Ten Commandments are taken as seriously today as ever…But as a larger society, we routinely dismiss the other six commandments…the strength of families is deteriorating at an alarming rate. This deterioration is causing widespread damage to society. I see direct cause and effect. As we give up commitment and fidelity to our marriage partners, we remove the glue that holds our society together…God reveals to His prophets that there are moral absolutes…The world changes constantly and dramatically, but God, His commandments, and promised blessings do not change…As Alma counseled his errant son Corianton, “Wickedness never was happiness” (Alma 41:10)…In a world where the moral compass of society is faltering, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ never wavers, nor should its stakes and wards, its families, or its individual members. We must not pick and choose which commandments we think are important to keep…

David A. Bednar wrote:

…Lucifer labors to make the sons and daughters of God confused and unhappy and to hinder their eternal progression. The overarching intent of the father of lies is that all of us would become “miserable like unto himself” (2 Nephi 2:27). Lucifer wants us ultimately to be alone in the dark and without hope…Satan relentlessly works to distort the most important elements of the Father’s plan…Because a physical body is so central to the Father’s plan of happiness and our spiritual development, Lucifer seeks to frustrate our progression by tempting us to use our bodies improperly…Violating the law of chastity is a grievous sin and a misuse of our physical tabernacles…it is easy to discern that the counterfeit companionship advocated by the adversary is temporary and empty…Your bishop or branch president is the spiritual physician’s assistant who is authorized to help you repent and heal. Please remember, however, that the extent and intensity of your repentance must match the nature and severity of your sins—especially for Latter-day Saints who are under sacred covenant…The doctrine I have described will seem to be archaic and outdated to many people in a world that increasingly mocks the sanctity of procreation and minimizes the worth of human life. But the Lord’s truth is not altered by fads, popularity, or public opinion polls. I promise that obedience to the law of chastity will increase our happiness in mortality…

Boyd K. Packer wrote:

…There came into my mind the warnings spoken by the prophets. We will not always be safe from the adversary’s influence, even within our own homes…We live in a very dangerous world that threatens those things that are most spiritual. The family, the fundamental organization in time and eternity, is under attack from forces seen and unseen. The adversary is about…If he can weaken and destroy the family, he will have succeeded…We are free to choose what we will and to pick and choose our acts, but we are not free to choose the consequences…Alma taught that “the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.” In order to understand this, we must separate the sin from the sinner…Tolerance is a virtue, but like all virtues, when exaggerated, it transforms itself into a vice. We need to be careful of the “tolerance trap” so that we are not swallowed up in it. The permissiveness afforded by the weakening of the laws of the land to tolerate legalized acts of immorality does not reduce the serious spiritual consequence that is the result of the violation of God’s law of chastity…

I don’t see it; in fact I see plenty of Jack Mormons and atheists that are still married and just as many devout Mormons getting divorced left and right. Shouldn’t it usually be the other way around if Satan really has so much power and motivation to destroy the family and the Church is supposed to help protect against this? What if some Church members faithfully keep all the explicit LDS commandments but instead of experiencing lasting peace and happiness they mostly experience a nagging feeling that something is fundamentally wrong and out of balance in their lives?

What if many Church members break these rules and find out for themselves that nothing bad ever happens or is likely to happen as a direct result of this disobedience to the Church’s strict standards as far as they really know for sure? Not only are these counter-examples possible, they are already happening and it looks like they are becoming increasingly likely to happen on an even larger scale in the future. That’s the problem with making so many specific claims, promises, and threats that members and investigators are apparently expected to believe simply because some Church leaders and/or scriptures said so, it doesn’t change or erase people’s actual real-life experiences to the contrary so what are the majority going to put more trust in over the long run?

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

I don’t see it; in fact I see plenty of Jack Mormons and atheists that are still married and just as many devout Mormons getting divorced left and right. Shouldn’t it usually be the other way around if Satan really has so much power and motivation to destroy the family and the Church is supposed to help protect against this?

Divorce rates are tricky. We can look at the rate among all members of the LDS church, including those have really have nothing to do with it, or we can look at those who got married in the temple and remain active, or consider other factors. Here’s one statistic to consider:

Quote:

A 1993 study published in Demography showed that Mormons marrying within their church are least likely of all Americans to become divorced. Only 13 percent of LDS couples have divorced after five years of marriage, compared with 20 percent for religiously homogamist unions among Catholics and Protestants and 27 percent among Jews. [Source: Bob Mims Mormons: high conservativism, low divorce, big growth, 6 March 1999, Salt Lake Tribune.]

This is also interesting:

Quote:

Follow-up research by Heaton, Bahr, and Jacobson (2005) assessed data from the 1990s and suggested that the divorce rate gap between Latter-day Saints and their national peers is narrowing. Specifically, they estimated that the lifetime divorce rate for Latter-day Saints married in the temple may be two-thirds of the national average of divorce, around 30%.

We recently did our own assessment of divorce among Latter-day Saints from data collected between 1999 and 2001…Returned-missionary men rank lowest in divorce, at 9%. This is in comparison to 29% of non-returned-missionary men and 38% of men nationally…If the above rates represent divorce by age 40, is it possible to calculate a lifetime divorce rate? Many scholars believe that the current lifetime divorce rate in the United States is now around 50%….Assuming that the proportion of divorce between LDS members and their non-LDS U.S. peers is similar across the life span, we estimate that the current lifetime divorce rate for returned-missionary men is around 12% and 16% for women. The lifetime rate for non-returned-missionary men is around 38% and around 22% for non-returned-missionary women. These figures include both civil and temple marriages combined.

… our estimation of the lifetime divorce rate for those with temple marriages is somewhere in the teens and probably no higher than 20%. –source

[Anonymous]

I will reply to your other comments later. I just want to say now that I am baffled that some people don’t see how morality is declining. Compare today’s popular TV shows to those from 50 years ago. Even if the shows only halfway reflect what society is really like, it’s looking bad to me. If Satan is abroad in the land, then one of his tactics is to conceal himself so people don’t recognize his work – he is a hidden enemy.

I hope you are not offended – I am not saying “DA is just tricked by the devil!” I really think part of the issue is that people are not recognizing the moral decline.

[Anonymous]

Shawn wrote:

I will reply to your other comments later. I just want to say now that I am baffled that some people don’t see how morality is declining. Compare today’s popular TV shows to those from 50 years ago. Even if the shows only halfway reflect what society is really like, it’s looking bad to me. If Satan is abroad in the land, then one of his tactics is to conceal himself so people don’t recognize his work – he is a hidden enemy.

I hope you are not offended – I am not saying “DA is just tricked by the devil!” I really think part of the issue is that people are not recognizing the moral decline.

I think that what DA is saying is that change happens but to label change as good or bad is more difficult. Many things have changed in the last 60 years. Some with good consequnces and some with bad. It would be very hard to quantify all the changes in society of the last 60 years and say that we have experienced a net possitive or a net loss. I believe that we have changed and will continue to change – I hope that the change represents growth but I understand your position if you see it as “decline.”

[Anonymous]

The way I see it, there are two Mormon Churches, one – very much the appearance of being Christ Like, with love and service to all mankind, talk of family, talk of tolerance for diversity…no strings attached – except maybe the fact that they seem to be putting on a sales pitch for new membership and show to kisses the worlds butt.

The other Mormon Church is pretty much a “Non Militant Fascist Society”. There was a time it was indeed somewhat militant, but today they seem to have moved passed things like blood atonement, etc. But the church is still very much fascist. They can only succeed in maintaining membership with fear and manipulation….fear of disciplinary action which they might endure if they misbehave in this life. In fact, if you hang around enough Mormons, both inside the church building and out, there seems to be a general theme of viewing this world as evil and they cannot wait until Christ returns…for any number of reasons…..be it what they feel would be true freedom from gov’t or perhaps not having to live any longer among sinners, such as…I don’t know, lets say: gays, Muslims, Atheists, democrats, people who ride Harleys on Sundays….Some might be business owners who hate restrictive things which seem to reduce their profits like EPA, OSHA and employees who are sick of getting paid crap and want to start a Union……. (I am just being silly here and not literally listing these things to start a political debate or single out groups of people…..just being silly here). Of course, in this groups there are two sub groups……ones with an agenda who in turn instil fear into those they wish to manipulate….in other words, fascism….only using fear, guilt, shame and self righteousness, with the promise of wonderful things in the life to come, instead of using guns to control them.

Just being silly here….except for the part where the LDS Church paints a different picture to the world and instills fear and guilt in it’s active members to control them and make them the same….in other words…fascism.

[Anonymous]

Shawn wrote:

I will reply to your other comments later. I just want to say now that I am baffled that some people don’t see how morality is declining. Compare today’s popular TV shows to those from 50 years ago. Even if the shows only halfway reflect what society is really like, it’s looking bad to me. If Satan is abroad in the land, then one of his tactics is to conceal himself so people don’t recognize his work – he is a hidden enemy…I hope you are not offended – I am not saying “DA is just tricked by the devil!” I really think part of the issue is that people are not recognizing the moral decline.

No that doesn’t offend me; I understand why some people would think there is a moral decline happening in the world and maybe in some cases there is. What I meant was that I don’t see any serious threat of the institution of marriage and the importance of families going away on a large scale anytime soon regardless of what happens with the Church, gay marriage laws, media portrayals, etc. Also, I think Church leaders are greatly exaggerating the relative importance of many Mormon traditions as if we need to live in constant fear because if we make one wrong step then there is supposedly some boogeyman lurking around the corner that is going to get us. Based on the general logic and claims of these recent talks I would expect that Satan has supposedly already tricked the Jack Mormons and atheists among others so if that’s the case then why wouldn’t he just take almost all of them one step further to break up their marriages and families?

And what about all the people that obey the major LDS commandments only to be blindsided by their marriage partner cheating on them or suddenly wanting a divorce anyway? Basically I don’t believe there is that much of a correlation between righteousness by LDS standards and overall marriage quality. Personally I think how satisfied people typically are in their marriages has more to do with their friendship, understanding and accepting each other, their basic needs and wants being met, etc. more than most religious considerations. Also, just because people don’t get divorced that doesn’t necessarily mean they are happy with their marriage. I have seen TBM couples where the husband was a workaholic that hardly ever talked to his wife or the where the wife almost never had sex with her husband. I doubt things like paying tithing, spending time on callings, reading scriptures, etc. are ever going to help much with some of the most common sources of dissatisfaction in marriages like this.

[Anonymous]

The world is worse than it has ever been – except in the cases where it’s better; it’s better than it has ever been – except in the cases where it’s worse.

The difference is in the perspective of the observer.

Overall, I”m a glass half-full kind of person with regard to this topic.

[Anonymous]

Fascinating thread. I began to leave the church when at 16 I was told by the bishopric of my ward that I would be excommunicated if I continued to smoke pot. This was 1982. I remember thinking they can’t excommunicate me because I don’t even have the MP. I saw them for what they were at that point, mere mortals out of their league with no so-called priesthood authority using fear mongering because they didn’t have anything else. It was sad. I can imagine so many other ways that they could have handled that situation IF they had truly been guided by God.

I don’t think Joseph Smith would have been as torn by beer drinking, smoking, etc, as the church has been since his death, or at least since 1929. I really doubt he would have prevented temple attendance b/c a member liked to have a beer after sacrament meeting. Like the priesthood and black issue the WofW as “doctrine” came in the context of prohibition, that is, it was a product of the culture at that time.

[Anonymous]

There is one aspect of this where am being glass-half-full guy. Where some others see fearmongering, I see sincere pleas for us to avoid pitfalls that can cause misery. Where some others hear control tactics, I hear invitations to better my life through repentance. Preaching repentance is a core part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I have personally suffered much because of my sins. I have a large family and I have seen lives jacked up and it would have been avoided by following what the church teaches about sexual morality and health.

[Anonymous]

DCGSage wrote:

The way I see it, there are two Mormon Churches, one – very much the appearance of being Christ Like, with love and service to all mankind, talk of family, talk of tolerance for diversity…no strings attached – except maybe the fact that they seem to be putting on a sales pitch…The other Mormon Church is pretty much a “Non Militant Fascist Society”…the church is still very much fascist. They can only succeed in maintaining membership with fear and manipulation…fear of disciplinary action which they might endure if they misbehave in this life…Just being silly here….except for the part where the LDS Church paints a different picture to the world and instills fear and guilt in it’s active members to control them and make them the same…

curt wrote:

Fascinating thread. I began to leave the church when at 16 I was told by the bishopric of my ward that I would be excommunicated if I continued to smoke pot. This was 1982. I remember thinking they can’t excommunicate me because I don’t even have the MP. I saw them for what they were at that point, mere mortals out of their league with no so-called priesthood authority using fear mongering because they didn’t have anything else. It was sad. I can imagine so many other ways that they could have handled that situation IF they had truly been guided by God…I don’t think Joseph Smith would have been as torn by beer drinking, smoking, etc, as the church has been since his death, or at least since 1929…

Personally I think there really is more to the idea that the Church currently relies heavily on fear, shame, guilt-trips, peer pressure, and other manipulative tactics to operate than many active members want to admit. If you bring up the topic that some people are saying the LDS Church is a cult that uses mind-control techniques to recruit and retain followers most of the active members I know would say it’s not really like that at all and get defensive about it. Maybe we’re not exactly all that similar to the Branch Davidians, Jim Jones’s Peoples Temple, Heaven’s Gate, or real hardcore political fascists but I still think that the level of fanaticism, authoritarianism, and intolerance that exist in the Church really are a legitimate cause for concern.

Regardless of what you want to call it, I think one of the most significant differences between the LDS Church and most other Christian sects of comparable size or larger with the possible exception of the JWs and some of the most extreme evangelical churches is that in most mainstream churches it looks like it would be much easier to get away with disregarding or ignoring much of what they preach if it doesn’t quite suit your taste. However, in the LDS Church we have regular worthiness interviews and tithing settlement and if you don’t obey the WoW, serve a full-time mission, or get married in the temple other members will typically notice and almost certainly disapprove.

My guess is that one of the main reasons Church leaders lowered the mission age limits especially for the young men is that they liked the idea of these young single adults being around other missionaries 24/7 earlier than before instead of being left on their own too long around some of the “bad” influences at college or work and they also hope RMs will get married in the temple fairly soon after their mission because they will be more likely to have their priorities in line with the Church’s recommendations than they did before the mission. To me it looks mostly like an attempted quick fix to get around and avoid facing the real underlying problem that some of these Mormon traditions cannot stand on their own merits and appeal to individual members and investigators very well so they basically need to be propped up by constant outside pressure and supervision, nagging, guilt-trips, etc. to keep them alive.

[Anonymous]

After conference by TBM brother sent me an email list he put together of 10 ways in which the world is significantly better than than it was 50 or 100 years ago. I completely agreed with him. Obviously these apply to the vast majority of countries in the world (especially in the West, but there are exceptions in some 3rd world countries). Here’s the list:

1) Political stability and lower threat of war

2) Welfare programs and lower poverty

3) Immunisation and eradication of some serious diseases

4) Civil Rights improvements have brought emancipation for minorities

5) Rights of Women have improved immeasurably: suffrage, education, birth control, working rights

6) Prostitution is no longer as rife in many western countries

7) Homosexuality has been decriminalised

Compulsory, free education has increased social mobility

9) Unionised workforces have pressured employers and government to introduce a minimum wage, safer working environments, paid holiday and maternity leave (although not universally in the US)

10) Almost all countries (US excepted) provide universal access to healthcare. Life expectancy has increased by around 30 years

My brother also made the point that from his research he believes that sex outside marriage is no more common now than it has been in the past, but that the social stigma attached to it has diminished.

This got me thinking that the only way it can be construed that the world is in rapid decline is in the area of morals, sex and families. This isn’t a clear picture either. From my own research into the figures (In the UK):

1) Marriage rates have barely changed in the last 10 years (although slightly down)

2) Divorce rates have fallen in 9 out of the last 10 years in the UK

3) Percentage of children born to unmarried parents has leveled off over the last 5-10 years, and data suggests this is due to sable middle class couples in their late 20s deciding to start a family rather than have an expensive wedding, delaying marriage until their mid 30s.

[Anonymous]

Is that really true?

1 – The Middle East and Maghreb (except Algeria) are less stable than they were ten years ago. The so called Arab Spring, invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan have actually destabilized the region and allowed Muslim fundamentalism to flourish in Libya, Egypt and parts of Mali, Syria, Iraq and even Turkey. Iraq has a major bombing practically every day.

2 – Isn’t the British government in the process of dismantling welfare right now? Check out what the IMF is doing elsewhere, it’s not good. We’re in the middle of the worst financial crisis for eighty years. Most of Europe is faltering, the USA’s badly affected and there’s no sign that we are emerging from it after several years.

4 – Civil rights is a good thing, but it also deflects attention off the working class in general and non-minority inequalities.

6 – I don’t see any evidence that prostitution’s gone away… it’s just more off the streets and indoors these days. We have a lot of it here. Now they even import prostitutes from Eastern Europe, we always used to grow our own. (If you go to the Netherlands, Germany, Nevada or Eastern Europe, you’ll see plenty of evidence it’s not gone away). Cheap international fights have also created a new phenomenon of mass sex tourism. Like manufacturing, a lot of it’s gone abroad.

8,9 Social mobility has actually declined since the eighties. Unions have been undermined thoughout the west for the past thirty years, and jobs exported to countries like Bangladesh and China where conditions are Dickensian and people, including children, regularly die in factories.

[Anonymous]

3 – Definite improvement, although there are issues involving weakened human immunity, and resistance increasing amongst germs. The fall of the Soviet Union led to complications in vaccination too.

5 – Yes but only in certain regions. Muslim fundamentalism, and migration of Muslim women to other countries raises questions, as western countries misguidedly accept sexism as part of multiculturalism.

7- Yes. Not in all regions though.

10 – A lot of countries have never had universal health care, and it disappeared in the former USSR, with the collapse of communism (can’t imagine there was much care in the Gulag though). In some parts of the world it is on an ad hoc basis – missionaries, charity etc providing it now and then.

[Anonymous]

All these points he made were in comparison to 50 or 100 years ago, so I think they’re all the case in most western countries (although certainly not everywhere).

As far as welfare is concerned, there are reforms going on in the UK, and some on the left would charactarise this as dismantling, but this rhetoric in my opinion as the reforms will maintain a universal welfare system to assist all.

As for Prostitution, he quoted a study he read (he’s a politics graduate) that showed that loss of virginity to a prostitute has dropped in the UK from 20% at the start of the 20th Century to under 5% 100 years later.

I wonder how many members see the progressive reforms of the current US government and equate this with ‘the world declining at an alarming rate?’ I think there are an alarming number of member stockpiling weapons and supplies ready for the collapse of the government on the advice of Glenn Beck.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

As for Prostitution, he quoted a study he read (he’s a politics graduate) that showed that loss of virginity to a prostitute has dropped in the UK from 20% at the start of the 20th Century to under 5% 100 years later.

Well firstly I don’t know how many people would admit to such a thing, secondly there are plenty of enthusiastic amateurs out there and thirdly, just about anyone can view pornography now.

Why do you think so many groups of men travel to Amsterdam, Prague, Bangkok, Manila, Las Vegas, Budapest, Tallinn, Vilnius, Reno, certain parts of Mexico, Riga, the Caribbean etc? It’s not for the culture and it isn’t just for cheap drink and drugs. All of these places are riddled with the sex trade.

[Author]

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