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Quote:
Wilford Woodruff- “God Himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge,
power, and dominion and will do so worlds without end.” (JD 6:120)
I remember sitting in on a Sunday School lesson a few years ago, and the Sister teaching the class said something very similar. This concept befuddles me. Isn’t God everywhere, and knows everything? How is this possible if God is continually changing? I would personally argue that He is not, and would like to present some Scriptures to support this Crazy Cookie statement:
Quote:Malachi 3:6 “For I am the LORD, I do not change; therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.”
But wait! That’s the Old Testament, you might say. With the New Testament, and the BOM, we’re more modernized than that old relic… Oh ye of little faith, there’s more!
Quote:James 1:17 “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.”
Even the
BOMsays so… Quote:2 Nephi 9:20. “O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.”
So my question:
How can a God that is continually progressing, learning and changing “…knoweth all things?”
— Cookie
(Long time lurker who finally signed up so that she could stop just telling the screen what she thought… lol!)
Welcome! Always good to have a long-time lurker post for the first time. Honestly, this is one of those topics where I think people try too hard to know the unknowable – and come up with some really interesting, wacky and contradictory beliefs. I’ve read some really good apologetics for both arguments, but, personally, I just don’t care either way – so I don’t spend any mental or spiritual capital on it. I figure I’ll understand someday, so I just don’t have an opinion about it right now.
Sorry. I don’t mean to be a buzz-kill, espeically with your first post, but that’s my honest response.
Mormonism is very keen on knowing the unknowable. I personally love that attitude and theme in the Church, but honestly when you really start to think about transcendent ideas, even the revealed truths of “the restoration,” you come right back to many paradoxes: - -God is perfect and God is progressing (your question)
-We are born in a context with a fate, but we also have free will that determines our destiny.
-We are exalted by our effort and it is a free gift from God.
-Both justice and mercy are perfectly satisfied through the atonement.
-The most important thing in life is finding the LDS Gospel (temple,etc.), yet 99.99% of all the humans that ever existed lived without it.
…to name a few
From my new perspective, I still believe it is important to explore and push to find the answers. I am also coming to a place of peace and comfort with not being able to know. Another paradox.
So I have a very simple answer to your question. God is BOTH perfect and unchanging, and God is also progressing.
😈 What that means? How is that possible? That’s the next question…Maybe for all of the journals Pres. Woodruff wrote, he might not have been all that great at clearly explaining a deep, and probably should have been a very private and personal revelation. Kind of make you wonder how to exercise faith in a god that may not be at his full potential yet? I think Elder Maxwell does a good job explaining that in his book All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, chapter 2 The Omniscience of an Omnipotent and Omniloving God. I think Elder Maxwell gives it his best shot as far as he understands it. DON’T MISTAKE. None of our leaders, past or present knew everything, so use judgement went quoting and living by their teachings. That’s not to say that they are wrong a lot, but, get close to the spirit and let the spirit sort these thing out. I agree with Ray. There are some things that don’t mean a dang Mormonism is very keen on knowing the unknowable. I personally love that attitude and theme in the Church, but honestly when you really start to think about transcendent ideas, even the revealed truths of “the restoration,” you come right back to many paradoxes:
- -God is perfect and God is progressing (your question)
-We are born in a context with a fate, but we also have free will that determines our destiny.
-We are exalted by our effort and it is a free gift from God.
-Both justice and mercy are perfectly satisfied through the atonement.
-The most important thing in life is finding the LDS Gospel (temple,etc.), yet 99.99% of all the humans that ever existed lived without it.
…to name a few
From my new perspective, I still believe it is important to explore and push to find the answers. I am also coming to a place of peace and comfort with not being able to know. Another paradox.
So I have a very simple answer to your question. God is BOTH perfect and unchanging, and God is also progressing.
😈 What that means? How is that possible? That’s the next question…I tend to agree with you!
They are both true. God is both changing and eternally the same.
A friend & I were having this exact same discussion recently. He said that his wife said the RS went off on a tangent, and I had missed it as I’ve been in the nursery. Out of curiosity, I asked what the tangent was, and he said it was about whether God was still progressing or not. I thought for a second and almost simultaneously we both came to opposite conclusions. I said God has to still be progressing – because of the concept of eternal progression. He said God is all-knowing (omniscient) so he can’t be gaining new knowledge, therefore he’s no longer progressing. But my view was that we are taught that the definition of Hell is when we cease to progress. So, if that’s the case – what kind of a God do we have if he’s no longer progressing? God is in Hell? That can’t be right. In short I don’t think it’ matters more than how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It also leads to other types of tangential questions: what about God’s father? Is Christ still progressing or is he perfect now? What does progress mean? But in any case, I think that one’s view on this question reveals which aspect of God we find more appealing and comfortable: God’s humanity or God’s divinity. Personally, I feel more drawn to God’s humanity, one reason I really appreciate the doctrines of Mormonism and find them unique and fresh among Christianity. But for someone more drawn to God’s divinity, I think the concept of omniscience is more appealing than eternal progression.
Oh, and WELCOME, Cookie!!! 
I learned a bit about Eastern Orthodoxy. Unlike Catholic/Protestant conceptions of God, the Orthodox revel in these paradoxes of God, and don’t attempt to explain these apparent contradictions. I remember a speaker saying that the Orthodox “revel” in these mysteries, and I think I like that idea. Too often, we Mormons try to make God finite. Yet he has infinite knowledge, power. Does that mean he is progressing? I guess I’ll answer that when I can pin infinity down to a specific number. God is mysterious, and I think we do a disservice when we make God too rational a character. I think that the nature of God is one of the mysteries that many have tried to understand. Joseph Smith gave a few little peeks and I think many have tried with their limited earthly brains to explain it. As far as doctrine goes, I don’t believe the JofD is used to define the doctrine even though it is a place where many prophets are quoted. (whether quoted correctly….that is something that is a question). I guess that when I see quotes like that I think its important to understand that nature of what one is reading. Is it revelation or just dudes pondering outloud?
My understanding of doctrine is that God is not progressing. He is fully progressed and currently in a state of eternally increasing. Whatever that means.
I think the nature of God made a lot more sense pre-1844. That’s when JS introduced the concept that God became God, that we can become gods ourselves, and ultimately that existence is about “eternally progressing”. While it is a highly intriguing doctrine, and mormonism wouldn’t be the same without it, I think it comes purely from JS’s imagination. As you’ve pointed out, it goes against all previously established notions of the nature of God. That’s not to say the old ones are obviously right, just that the old and new are not (imo) compatible, and so you have to toss one out. I’d toss out the post-1844 mormon doctrines before I’d toss out everything that ever came before that. Hawkgrrrl, where can I find the quote about hell = no longer progressing?? I hadn’t heard that before.
Welcome Cookie! I tend to be with Brian and Hawk. From a personal perspective of “becoming like God” I hope to be forever progressing. I consider a state of not being able to learn new things a “hell”, that’s how it hits me personally (and probably Brigham Young, and WW if I read their words correctly).
My take on “God knows everything” was always based on the idea of anything that can relate to us NOW as we live on earth. Everything except the complete, exact and minute details of the future that is (or it would seem to nullify agency).
It is one of those things that is impossible to know, but interesting to ponder.
I tend to think that for me to have faith in God, I must believe Him and His characteristics will never change. Today, He is a perfect resurrected man who knows all and loves all. If that will have the chance of changing tomorrow, I will just wait to tomorrow to find out how I should worship Him because today may be irrelevant to tomorrow’s standards. I don’t believe that is possibly, so I have faith in Him today as never changing, perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent being. Having said that, I have long believed His progression is not learning new ideas or principles on how to govern the universe, but He may still progress in His glory (His children growing to add to His glory). I could accept that He could learn new facts, but not new ideas or concepts. Like, I was born and given an earthly name by my parents, He may learn my new name…but that has no bearing on His ability to be a God, nor His ability to know who I am and what my character is.
I think many things are taught to us on a level that we can grasp or that is important to us. IF there are worlds without number, How can He number them all…I just think to my mortal brain…it is without a number I can comprehend, but not without a number God can count. So I bring those concepts to apply to my faith in relying on a God that is unchangeable as far as it impacts me and my existence, not what is in the realm of possibility that I can’t conceive of.
MapleLeaf wrote:
Hawkgrrrl, where can I find the quote about hell = no longer progressing?? I hadn’t heard that before.I thought this idea was in reference to damnation. The bible dictionary defines it as “the opposite to salvation”, and exists in various degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of Celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and hence be damned to that extent.” Hell is a temporary state where justice exacts its final due. Or it could be having dinner with my SIL.
My “”oblique” reply is that we tend to judge and perceive “God” as a perfected person with the same passions and processes that we have. Humans have been attempting to define and describe “Him” for centuries…with some bizarre results! From that perspective, it makes sense to get all curious and assumptive about this, but I choose to approach it as unknowable from our finite human limitations. I find more pleasure putting my energy into improving my daily life and enjoying the beauties all around me each day. I don’t feel the need to dwell on issues that I feel can’t be known.
But that’s just me today…
Poppyseed wrote:Hell is a temporary state where justice exacts its final due. Or it could be having dinner with my SIL.
😆 😆 …that’s too funny! - -God is perfect and God is progressing (your question)
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