The God Confusion: Is God Eternally Progressing?

[Anonymous]

jeffwalshgen wrote:

“There is a divergence of opinion amongst the General Authorities on this question!!

Thanks for sharing, Jeff.

I knew there was room in this church for “divergence of opinions”!

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

I knew there was room in this church for “divergence of opinions”!

Especially ones of such pressing significance.

[Anonymous]

Like I say quite often, sometimes we just ask too many questions.

Often it’s not the answers that are important; it’s the searching caused by the questions.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Like I say quite often, sometimes we just ask too many questions.

Often it’s not the answers that are important; it’s the searching caused by the questions.

i wonder if an understanding of the paints and canvas Leonardo da Vinci used to paint he Mona Lisa are relevant to the experience of appreciating the painting itself.

is it required to know about god in order to know god?

[Anonymous]

wayfarer wrote:

Old-Timer wrote:

Like I say quite often, sometimes we just ask too many questions.

Often it’s not the answers that are important; it’s the searching caused by the questions.

i wonder if an understanding of the paints and canvas Leonardo da Vinci used to paint he Mona Lisa are relevant to the experience of appreciating the painting itself.

is it required to know about god in order to know god?

As an avid photographer, I can say that the more you know about the craft, the harder it is to appreciate. It is hard for me to enjoy a good photo without wondering how it was taken and with what equipment. I might worry about the lighting or how it was composed. Instead of just stepping back and enjoying the photo as a whole, I worry about the details.

I am sure there is a metaphor in there somewhere..

[Anonymous]

I thought you were going to go in another direction with that, brown. The more I know about a craft, the deeper appreciation I have for it, although I can admit it has the chance to cause more frustration.

Perhaps my example is basketball. The more I know about the rules, more about experiencing how difficult the game is to play, the more I can watch with amazement as this no-name from the Knicks (Lin) can light up Kobe Bryant (probably the best or one of the best players in the world) and appreciate how amazing those guys are battling on the court. Knowing more about the game also sets up frustrations when a hyped up championship NCAA game is a dud and not fun to watch…because i wanted it to be better, and i was looking for better elements in the game that didnt happen. Then im more disappointed than someone who doesnt understand the game at all. My wife or my kids don’t care, and think I’m silly getting worked up watching my dumb sports shows.

I think by trying to know more about God, I develop more faith in Him.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

I thought you were going to go in another direction with that, brown. The more I know about a craft, the deeper appreciation I have for it, although I can admit it has the chance to cause more frustration.

Perhaps my example is basketball. The more I know about the rules, more about experiencing how difficult the game is to play, the more I can watch with amazement as this no-name from the Knicks (Lin) can light up Kobe Bryant (probably the best or one of the best players in the world) and appreciate how amazing those guys are battling on the court. Knowing more about the game also sets up frustrations when a hyped up championship NCAA game is a dud and not fun to watch…because i wanted it to be better, and i was looking for better elements in the game that didnt happen. Then im more disappointed than someone who doesnt understand the game at all. My wife or my kids don’t care, and think I’m silly getting worked up watching my dumb sports shows.

I think by trying to know more about God, I develop more faith in Him.

can i say it slightly differently? the more we observe the working of the power of god, the more we develop faith in him.

to know “about god” typically connotes learning about the attributes of god as revealed in scripture and as reflected in the doctrine of the church. the ontological, identifying attributes of god are typically reflected in a lot of identity statements: god is all powerful. god is omniscient. god is loving. god is omnibenevolent. god is our father. god is an exalted man. god is x, y, and z. if you accumulate enough “is x” statements, you might know a lot “about god”. the problem is that none of these statements help us “know” god, and any objective statement about god detracts from a real understanding. the only identity relation that is to be found throughout scripture that truly identifies god is “I AM”.

i don’t think your statements in the longer paragraph in your post describe anything about learning ‘about god’. is god a craft, rules, or a difficult experience? Here you are talking about observing processes, actions, the workings of a power, an appreciation of the Way things work. you are observing the effect of god, but are you coming to know anything about god? it’s like you’re observing the effect of wind, but cannot know ‘about’ wind.

1 Kings 19:11-12 wrote:

[The word of the Lord came to Elijah saying,] ‘Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord.’ And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

Elijah knew god. nothing here describes god’s attributes. in fact, there are a bunch of ‘not this’ statements about god here (neti, neti). would it help elijah’s knowledge of god if he knew more about the standard doctrines about god’s attributes? not at all. once Elijah came to have the still small voice enter his mind and his heart, those attributes were completely irrelevant. he knew god, in a personal and intimate way — a still small voice that pierced him to the very center (hmmm, quoting the book of mormon here…)

when you talk about understanding the rules, craft, experience, and workings of god as reflected in life, you are, as JS reveals in Section 88, observing god moving in his majesty and power. you are really not seeing god’s person, but rather observing the emergent effect of the power of God, or what Christ called, “the Way”. nothing in your observation tells you the standard doctrine of god having a tangible body of flesh and bones, that he is the father of our spirits, or that he was once man — all the things we’re supposed to know ‘about’ god. yet, by observing the Way as reflected in the workings of things helps us come to know god personally through experiencing his presence.

[Anonymous]

fwiw, I would rather my children have regular “spiritual experiences” than have a deep, intellectual understanding of theology. Iow, I’d rather have them “experience / know God” than “know about God”.

Having said that, I think it is very important for them to understand themselves as well as they can – so they really can believe that the kingdom of God is within them and “be” God’s kingdom / God in a very real way in their own sphere.

[Anonymous]

Yes, wayfarer. Rewording that does provide some clearer ideas.

I gather you are talking about me playing basketball to really know the sport, which is to know it at a completely different level than just observing or studying it. The limitation with my example is also comparing a craft to the Way, which does not fully fit.

But my point is similar to the way Ray put it, having spiritual experiences is preferred over studying facts about God. This is more conversion and testimony and faith over knowledge.

The experience is of greater value than the knowledge.

God is. The characteristics are the stories we place on God to convey what we internally are experience. Which is why it has been a lifelong pursuit for some to try to write the stories…they just don’t adequately capture it…but they can move people closer so they can experience something themselves, at which point, they more fully come to know.

[Anonymous]

Orson asked about this topic, so I am bumping it up for further discussion.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ray, just goes to show how short my memory is! :shh:

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