The goodness of God?

[Anonymous]

Quote:

AP…I’m interested in your take on the first question. If God can do whatever he wants, then could D&C 132 be from Him, JS still be a prophet completely and not acting on his own accord when he dictated that section, and we have to have faith in God and His purpose in that scripture regardless?

It seems no one took on the idea that JS didn’t write D&C 132, but that it was a revelation after all.

And, just so you know, I don’t subscribe to it being a revelation, but I’m exploring that possibility (which seems unlikely).

At one point, I thought God had probably allowed JS’s death .. Because of JS’s abuse of power.

I have SO many issues with so many parts of the D & C. Too much of it reads like a weirdo cult leader wrote it to keep his people under control. Other parts of it have goodness.

And yes .. I know I probably shouldn’t use the descriptive “weirdo” on a StayLDS posting .. But it is the best description of where my thoughts are about JS.

Maybe JS had some inspiration .. And he also abused his power. That would just make him very human.

At this point in my FC, whether JS was a prophet or not doesn’t really matter. I’m trying to focus on where the church is now and if the modern LDS church is relavent in my life. When I get caught in the history, I find myself emotionally and spiritually getting up and walking away.

[Anonymous]

amateurparent wrote:

Quote:

AP…I’m interested in your take on the first question. If God can do whatever he wants, then could D&C 132 be from Him, JS still be a prophet completely and not acting on his own accord when he dictated that section, and we have to have faith in God and His purpose in that scripture regardless?

It seems no one took on the idea that JS didn’t write D&C 132, but that it was a revelation after all.

And, just so you know, I don’t subscribe to it being a revelation, but I’m exploring that possibility (which seems unlikely).

At one point, I thought God had probably allowed JS’s death .. Because of JS’s abuse of power.

I have SO many issues with so many parts of the D & C. Too much of it reads like a weirdo cult leader wrote it to keep his people under control. Other parts of it have goodness.

And yes .. I know I probably shouldn’t use the descriptive “weirdo” on a StayLDS posting .. But it is the best description of where my thoughts are about JS.

Maybe JS had some inspiration .. And he also abused his power. That would just make him very human.

At this point in my FC, whether JS was a prophet or not doesn’t really matter. I’m trying to focus on where the church is now and if the modern LDS church is relavent in my life. When I get caught in the history, I find myself emotionally and spiritually getting up and walking away.

This feels like a very candid and open post AP. Thank you.

The challenge I struggle with currently is the idea of the “only true church” and what that means. It messes with basic definitions of “true”. And, the idea of “weird” DOES apply. As a culture, LDS people throw around phrases like “I know the church is true”,…and so forth, without care being given to the meaning of the words. When children say it, I can accept that; but when learned adults say those things, especially authorities, well,…that does get weird to me.

I feel spiritual light in the LDS church but no longer accept it as the final destination. My idea of goodness is intrinsically connected with accountability, and the LDS faith does not hold itself accountable as a whole for mistakes made, or human weakness. JS is held up as a beacon of virtue, goodness, and honor. Past church presidents are held up the same, and yet they were human and their weaknesses do infiltrate church history and doctrine. To hold them up in such a way as examples of purity and virtue injures accountability, and as such, injures goodness for me personally.

Denying the truth about someone or history in order to preserve a narrative or to achieve “image management” is still telling lies IMHO. And lies and goodness don’t mix.

And, then saying that this is the Lord’s church and HE leads it makes Him, at least indirectly, accountable for the mistakes made which are not acknowledged; if they are, they are often not directly countered and apologized/repented of. Hence, the struggle I have with the church splashes onto my image of God himself.

My FC is forcing me to disengage my understanding of God completely from the man-made organization called the LDS Church.

[Anonymous]

Rob4Hope wrote:

My FC is forcing me to disengage my understanding of God completely from the man-made organization called the LDS Church.

Welcome to the club. Now you’re getting somewhere.

[Anonymous]

amateurparent wrote:

Maybe JS had some inspiration .. And he also abused his power. That would just make him very human.

Yup, JS was a man with a unique skill set. He was inspired by things in his environment, took bits and pieces from many sources, and cobbled them together into something that was different from anything that came before. I believe that JS had a giant imagination and used it liberally. None of this invalidates the idea that JS was a tool in the hands of God.

If Pharaoh in the time of Moses could fulfill God’s designs in denying the Israeli people freedom then surely JS could also fit the bill. Remember that Pharaoh was claiming to be a God at this time and in no way was a believer or even particularly righteous.

Rob4Hope wrote:

It seems no one took on the idea that JS didn’t write D&C 132, but that it was a revelation after all.

Of course JS wrote it, but that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t revelation. Even under the best of circumstances, what comes out of a prophets mouth is always filtered through that man’s life experiences and mental facilities.

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D&C 46:7 But ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils.

This seems to fit in with what JS is reported to have said after the failed attempt to sell the BOM copyright in Canada, “Some revelations are of God, others of Men, and still others of devils.”

While the above quotes seem to indicate that revelations from God are pure – this does not match my understanding of how prophets work. Prophets do not become mere transcription machines when they become prophet. I therefore expect all revelations to have a partial (to heavy) human component.

Rob4Hope wrote:

And lies and goodness don’t mix.

Just like in so many things – good and bad can coexist in the same person or organization. Things are messy and such is life.

Rob4Hope wrote:

My FC is forcing me to disengage my understanding of God completely from the man-made organization called the LDS Church.

This is ultimately where I have landed. I believe the LDS church to be good and bring many people closer to God through living upstanding productive lives. However, I no longer need the LDS church to act as a “go between” for my relationship with my Father. Perhaps at one point I did need this and it served as a useful visual representation for God. That time has since passed. Hearing the word of God for me no longer just means to turn to authorized sources. Now I must sift through everything and hold fast to that which I find to be good. Much more work. Much more tentative.

Rob4hope, In the spirit of your original question:

Could God still be considered good if He created the world and everything in it and saw that it was good?

Could God still be considered good if He gave every human life and the opportunity to have life experiences both good and bad?

Could God still be considered good if He prepares a place for each of his children to reach their highest potential after this life?

I have had to disengage my understanding of God’s goodness completely from any expectations of joy, happiness, and success in this life. Maybe God lets us experiment, fail, and pick ourselves up again. That does not necessarily reduce His “goodness.”

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Rob4Hope wrote:

My FC is forcing me to disengage my understanding of God completely from the man-made organization called the LDS Church.

Yes. Ditto. Absolutely.

I am good with God.

My relationship with the LDS church is the problem.

My life is being lived in a very clean and moral way. LDS standard life. I do so simply because I don’t want anyone to be able to say that I left due to WoW or morality issues; and, to honor my husbands’ firm belief in the church.

[Anonymous]

Perfection exists only in higher spheres. God is the ideal and perfectly good.

On this earth, we are far from ideals. Prophets, churches, scripture are all of this world and not perfect.

In this world, perfection is the enemy of good when it keeps us from progressing. Instead, we should embrace goodness, while we look to and be inspired by perfection not of this world.

I accept Joseph as a prophet who is allowed to make mistakes trying to figure things out. The church is good, but not perfect, and is trying to figure things out because it is lead by mortals, guided by God.

If we had to wait for perfect prophets, churches, or scripture…our lives would come and go waiting. Better for us to get on with it, and use the goodness we can find along the way.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Heber13 wrote:

I accept Joseph as a prophet who is allowed to make mistakes trying to figure things out. The church is good, but not perfect, and is trying to figure things out because it is lead by mortals, guided by God.

If we had to wait for perfect prophets, churches, or scripture…our lives would come and go waiting. Better for us to get on with it, and use the goodness we can find along the way.

The problem is that many of the mistakes JS made would get me arrested, excommunicated, and banished.

In the modern church, the bar for perfection in our actions has been set inordinately high. Repentance is talked about, but the cultural expectation is that we are supposed to get it right the first time. Should we expect less from someone who we are calling a Seer, Revelator, and Prophet of God?

[Anonymous]

amateurparent wrote:

In the modern church, the bar for perfection in our actions has been set inordinately high. Repentance is talked about, but the cultural expectation is that we are supposed to get it right the first time. Should we expect less from someone who we are calling a Seer, Revelator, and Prophet of God?

Here’s how I look at this kind of thing… it is true that many people within the Church have that view of perfectionism. I don’t. They do. I don’t. So, when they look at JS or the other prophets, they see only the good and they discount the bad as misunderstanding of what JS or the others were doing. Because I don’t demand perfection of other people, that extends to leaders, even those who others might revere. You used the term “the modern church” and then you used the term “we”. I don’t consider myself to be representative of the modern Church. Like it or not, we are in the minority. The majority body of the Church is coming around, and the exposure to the essays and the museum will help get off the perfectionist bent, but it will take a very long time. But, I only worry about me. I have no issue with others thinking JS was a misunderstood saint. After all, many people who knew him personally felt that way about him. I don’t feel that way, but it really doesn’t affect me in the slightest. I’m already a non-believer, so it’s not boat-rocking for me.

JS was an extremely complex individual whose accomplishments and failures were both off the charts. Depending on where one focuses their laser vision, JS can be seen as a hero or a villain, or as many on this site see him, as a strange, almost inexplicable, mixture of both.

I think people in our situation are overly sensitive to how other people see JS. We are offended when they aren’t offended. It’s probably related to how we used to be offended that other people WERE offended. Now, because we have also become offended we want everyone else who is like we once were to become offended, too. It was for a long time an issue for me, but I just don’t spend a lot of time worrying about what others think, anymore. I have found peace largely by allowing others to have different perspectives and conclusions than I do.

[Anonymous]

amateurparent wrote:

The problem is that many of the mistakes JS made would get me arrested, excommunicated, and banished.

I know that what I’m about to write is not a sufficient answer for you… but something I consider is that JS was arrested, beaten, banished, and executed. Not from the church, but from a society that was harsh. I often think of Samuel the Lamanite who we are OK with being a prophet, who stood on a wall, gave a sermon while being attacked, and ran away. We have no idea what he did with his life before or after that, but he was a prophet to deliver a message at a time. What if STL made mistakes after that, and by making mistakes an arrow did find its way directly through his chest and killed him later? We don’t know. All we know is the message he delivered at one time, not all the messy details of life before and after…which makes it easy to accept him as a prophet, when we don’t know the baggage. But odds are…he had some. Who doesn’t?

I do think God works with me this way in my life and I think it makes sense with prophets too. At times, God seems to give me flashes of goodness, and then times he goes away and I am on my own, making mistakes and trying to do what I think he wants me to…and then I get flashes again and need to repent.

I find some comfort in reading RSR when I see God works with his prophets the same way. Letting them make mistakes, even serious ones that result in consequences of being arrested, excommunicated from other congregations or social circles, and banished from society. And yet…God can still work through them as they learn.

Quote:

In the modern church, the bar for perfection in our actions has been set inordinately high. Repentance is talked about, but the cultural expectation is that we are supposed to get it right the first time. Should we expect less from someone who we are calling a Seer, Revelator, and Prophet of God?

Too high of expectations leads to frustrations. That applies to Seer, Revelator, and Prophet as well as lowly me. I don’t hold them less accountable, nor do I think they are irrelevant and nothing matters. That doesn’t inspire me. But I don’t hold them to unrealistic expectations, even if I thought I was taught to do so in the church I grew up in learning about it all, where stories were sensationalized to prop them up as people tried to express their feelings of reverence and commitment to the prophets. I am learning that people, including leaders (like 14 Fundamental type talks) were holding Joseph to a standard I don’t think God intended us to place on his prophets. And a standard of perfection that should never be held to anyone because I can’t find peace in life if I can’t allow myself and others to fail.

So, in the spirit of this thread, I think the goodness of God is to see that He loves us enough to let us muck around in the sandbox and try things out, but His goodness vets out the over reactions and hyperbole from reality…and in time…His goodness comes through and I learn to see things as I should to be a happy, healthy Son of God.

I believe in His goodness. I believe that pain and hurt and disappointment exist. I believe Joseph Smith made mistakes and tried to restore things that God wasn’t telling him was to be restored, and those things got corrected through the goodness of God despite Joseph Smith and a string of prophets afterwards following Joseph Smith. And I separate those out from the beautiful things Joseph Smith did restore that bless my family.

I know those aren’t good answers that help you feel any different, AP. I know that. I’m just sharing how I feel about it. I have HAD to let go of some things in order to find the goodness of God in my life. I try to not let go of too much that I can’t feel his goodness. It is a journey. Constant small course corrections. Repentance. Faith. If I’m responsible for my faith…I realize some things taught to me by others, including prophets, are not always going to be truth that helps me. But I will not stop trying to find truth to be a better father, husband, and son of god. So I must accept JS with bumps and warts and mortality and mistakes if I am to accept him as a prophet who revealed good things. Because I believe he did both.

I believe the goodness of God is great enough you can find a path through things to see JS somehow and someway that you have peace about JS being who JS was…nothing more, nothing less. Whatever that is. When you get there…it will be through God’s goodness that you receive peace, as I know you have in many other areas of your life.

God is good all the time.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

OON wrote: Here’s how I look at this kind of thing… it is true that many people within the Church have that view of perfectionism. I don’t. They do. I don’t. So, when they look at JS or the other prophets, they see only the good and they discount the bad as misunderstanding of what JS or the others were doing. Because I don’t demand perfection of other people, that extends to leaders, even those who others might revere. You used the term “the modern church” and then you used the term “we”. I don’t consider myself to be representative of the modern Church. Like it or not, we are in the minority. The majority body of the Church is coming around, and the exposure to the essays and the museum will help get off the perfectionist bent, but it will take a very long time. But, I only worry about me. I have no issue with others thinking JS was a misunderstood saint. After all, many people who knew him personally felt that way about him. I don’t feel that way, but it really doesn’t affect me in the slightest. I’m already a non-believer, so it’s not boat-rocking for me.

Excellent points. It wasn’t until I was sent to BYU that I encountered LDS culture. It was a shock.

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JS was an extremely complex individual whose accomplishments and failures were both off the charts. Depending on where one focuses their laser vision, JS can be seen as a hero or a villain, or as many on this site see him, as a strange, almost inexplicable, mixture of both.

Absolutely.

Quote:

I think people in our situation are overly sensitive to how other people see JS. We are offended when they aren’t offended. It’s probably related to how we used to be offended that other people WERE offended. Now, because we have also become offended we want everyone else who is like we once were to become offended, too. It was for a long time an issue for me, but I just don’t spend a lot of time worrying about what others think, anymore. I have found peace largely by allowing others to have different perspectives and conclusions than I do.

I meet people who feel that everyone needs to share their viewpoint. They live for the Echo Chamber. The sharing of differing viewpoints and uncomfortable ideas is important to me. I enjoy the exchange of ideas more than I care about the outcome. The idea that we can take a complex person like JS and hold him up at infallible is really interesting to me. The fact that many of his more horrifying actions are given a “free pass” due to his more stellar achievements is amazing. There are anti-LDS groups who see only the bad. LDS groups who only see the good. Finding a neutral and balanced story of facts and history about JS is difficult. I find the dichotomy of JS’s life and the current expectations of members to be fascinating.

[Anonymous]

I’ve been gone for a while, but just noticed several additional posts on this thread. I am with AP on a lot of this stuff. My entire concept of God was taught to me through the lense of the LDS faith. it is disconcerting to say the least when encountering what has been dubbed mistakes of JS above. You see, one of the foundational points of the gospel to me is that God is not a respecter of persons. But, along comes JS doing some things that as AP pointed out, would get you excommunicated and arrested, and doing it in the name of God. Now I know many will say: “Yes, but the laws were different back then”, and I understand that argument. But looking at the hurt and heartache caused by those mistakes can’t be ignored. JS did certain things, lied about it, and the apologetic excuse is more or less he was commanded? Or he had to because the people weren’t ready and God needed him to move forward?

Anyway, back on track.

If God was the founder of all of this stuff, then He gave JS a license as it were to break his own rules. That is not OK with me; it messes with the idea of “God is no respecter of persons”; and, that messes with the goodness of God. That is why this whole post came about.

I didn’t know this FC would lead me to actually divorce God and the LDS church from each other, nor did I anticipate in my wildest dreams it would challenge everything I have ever known about God. What a really wild rush. What a ride!

[Anonymous]

What a ride indeed, Rob. I don’t think any of us anticipated these things would – or could – happen to us. That’s what the crisis was (is) in my case.

[Anonymous]

This same infallibility of religious leaders is seen in politics, and we all see it through the lens of our culture and upbringing.

I find it mesmerizing to listen to atheists and religious zealots argue about a candidate. The atheist will make the statement that he doesn’t care what the candidate does in his personal life, he just cares whether the candidate is fit for office. The zealot will not consider the candidate fit for office if the candidate isn’t appropriate in his personal life. Example: When Bill Clinton ran for office, his history as a womanizer came up. The spin was applied that just because something happened in the past, doesn’t mean it will happen in the future. Some atheists didn’t care, others saw it as an inability to keep basic promises and contracts. Some zealots yelled that “All was forgiven”. Others saw him as morally unclean.

And in the end, everyone blamed Monica.

In the LDS church, Emma was vilified for decades. IMO, it is a better dynamic that we as a culture and a church have gotten away from blaming Emma. The conversation has become about JS. That is healthier.

[Anonymous]

amateurparent wrote:

In the LDS church, Emma was vilified for decades. IMO, it is a better dynamic that we as a culture and a church have gotten away from blaming Emma. The conversation has become about JS. That is healthier.

In heartland LDS in SLC, there are TBM every way you look. Those who focus (or don’t focus as the case may be) on this issue usually fit into one of the following categories:

1. They say nothing but have feelings about the issue — the silent folks who don’t want to rock the boat, regardless of how they feel.

2. Those who are TBM (the majority in my opinion) who justify what was done, refuse to look closely, and just parrot the party line, regardless of how it sways.

3. Those who have opinion either for or against, and are not so quite. Both seem to get into trouble, but especially those who are against what JS did. you know…a call to the bishops office and talked to about reading scripture, saying prayers, and all that.

But, the biggest group I know of is the TBM one….#2.

I agree it is a better dynamic to look at JS and what he chose and did. Emma didn’t have much of a choice, at least from a religious perspective. But, it seems so few really see it that way…

I am encouraged (provided it is true) that the numbers of those moving out of group #2 seem to be growing.

I moved out of that group,…but the shake down that happened to me threw my entire belief system out of kilter. It isn’t about JS at this point only,…it is also about God himself…

[Anonymous]

Rob4Hope wrote:

If God was the founder of all of this stuff, then He gave JS a license as it were to break his own rules. That is not OK with me; it messes with the idea of “God is no respecter of persons”; and, that messes with the goodness of God.

Must God be considered either to be the “founder” of the Church or to be completely un-involved in the process?

For just a second, let’s talk about the people throughout history who have sincerely sought to promote what they believed was right and according to the will of some higher power. John the Baptist, Peter, and Paul from early Christianity, for example. Or Martin Luther… Mother Theresa… Pope Frances… GBH… and perhaps… JS. I don’t think that any of these people would consider that God is telling them what to say and what to do at every step, but rather, they interpret what they believe is true and they apply it to their teachings. And in doing so, they usually credit the inspiration of God.

Did God, for example, specifically found the work of Mother Theresa, or was it more that she was pursuing that of which she believed God would approve? If God wasn’t the founder of her work, did that make it a Godless work? No, not at all.

Paul saw himself as the Apostle to the Gentiles. He was a revolutionary and an Independent with a capital I. But a decade and a half after his conversion, he went to Jerusalem to meet for the first time with Kephas (Peter) and to confer with him and other leaders. Paul had already determined that the Gospel was for all, but it’s very interesting to note his own words (Galations 2) regarding what he was seeking: “…meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain (NIV).” What I glean from this is the image of a man doing what he was certain to be right, but of his own accord and his own interpretation… his own inspiration.

I believe that JS saw himself as a significant agent in the Gospel, and that to a large degree, if he thought it, it was because it was the will of God. The way I’ve said it here before is that my feeling is that JS believed God spoke through him more than to him. That’s no different than the people I’ve listed above. And then you come to the question of whether God could be a source for the good that JS did and at the same time not the source for the things that JS did that were wrong. For my part, I see nothing wrong with that line of thinking, because to me, all good exists in our imperfect sphere right alongside the bad. IMO, it is for us to seek out the good and leave alone the bad in all aspects of our lives.

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