The Gospel =/= The Church

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

We have to find our personal testimony to deal with an imperfect organization, imperfect prophets and leaders, and yet still look towards the gospel standards we need to seek after and practice, even while the church evolves to seek after that truth.

The value of StayLDS to me, is to continue to practice how to be a better person myself, while realizing there is no perfect organization on the earth to go find. I need to try to improve in the midst of imperfection.

We have regular differences in perspective based on brain chemistry, abilities, personality, experiences, ect. that wreck havoc with our perception of “perfection”.

To make things even more interesting, “perfect” by definition is a true/false, black/white construct. If something is perfect, that means it is “without flaw” which means a checklist to go against to determine its perfection. I am steering away form labeling things as “perfect” because I don’t want to think in terms of binary for most things. I am choosing “excellent”, “effective”, “justified” as more specific words to use to describe choices that have merit. “That’s the perfect choice.” does not have the same meaning as “That is the most effective choice.” If the “perfect” choice is taken off the table, you are scrambling around until you find another one. If the “most effective” choice is taken off the table, well then you move on to a less effective choice, or go back to the drawing board.

I feel that part of mortality is going through the 5 stages of grief while learning to work with others until we reach a state “acceptance” with that person. With some people we bargain, we deny what they are talking about, we experience frustration/anger, and we can become depressed in our efforts to work with a person. More conversations then I would like to admit go through the frustration/anger, denial, depression, bargaining stages before we reach a state of “acceptance” and have a course of action planned out.

[Anonymous]

AmyJ wrote:

I feel that part of mortality is going through the 5 stages of grief while learning to work with others until we reach a state “acceptance” with that person.

:clap: Well said. Well said!

[Anonymous]

The idea of the church and the gospel being separate is one of my relatively few soapbox issues. Our theology actually makes it clear – we believe/teach that the gospel has always existed. I do believe the gospel is eternal, and it is, as you point out Beefster, very simple and all about the Savior and Redeemer Jesus Christ. The church, on the other hand, has not always existed. It teaches the gospel and a load of other things, but it is not the gospel. Without the gospel there would be no church, but there would still be the gospel without the church which is proven by scripture and history.

I think we differ a bit from there Beefster. I don’t necessarily believe there is a necessity of “priesthood authority” to baptize, etc., and that the ordinances are really only symbolic anyway. Nevertheless, I do believe the church has a place and is a tool in that sense. In the past here I think it has been compared to a walking stick on the path of the gospel.

Separating the church and the gospel was/is the most important thing that makes it possible for me to remain an active member.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

I think we differ a bit from there Beefster. I don’t necessarily believe there is a necessity of “priesthood authority” to baptize, etc., and that the ordinances are really only symbolic anyway.

I agree with the idea that the ordinances are purely symbolic- at least the ritualism behind them. I believe the priesthood is there to link that symbolic act to an actual meaningful spiritual effect (Baptism could just as well be done by throwing salt over your left shoulder as it would be getting immersed in water. Or why stop there? It could be done with the laying on of hands or a simple prayer and it would have the same effect- that is if God wanted it that way.). Without priesthood it’s just another meaningless ritual and we wouldn’t make such a big deal out of people having to be baptized in our church rather than any church like most other churches do.

Then again, I could see how a church (and not necessarily a gospel) would make a big deal about that- especially since baptism is tied to membership.

[Anonymous]

Beefster wrote:

DarkJedi wrote:

I think we differ a bit from there Beefster. I don’t necessarily believe there is a necessity of “priesthood authority” to baptize, etc., and that the ordinances are really only symbolic anyway.

I agree with the idea that the ordinances are purely symbolic- at least the ritualism behind them. I believe the priesthood is there to link that symbolic act to an actual meaningful spiritual effect (Baptism could just as well be done by throwing salt over your left shoulder as it would be getting immersed in water. Or why stop there? It could be done with the laying on of hands or a simple prayer and it would have the same effect- that is if God wanted it that way.). Without priesthood it’s just another meaningless ritual and we wouldn’t make such a big deal out of people having to be baptized in our church rather than any church like most other churches do.

Then again, I could see how a church (and not necessarily a gospel) would make a big deal about that- especially since baptism is tied to membership.

The bold part is where I think our difference is. The symbolism is a meaningful as you make it. It is correct that we believe at baptism we are not only being baptized for the remission of sins but also as members of the church. Some other churches have similar belief, but most leave it at the remission of sins and the symbolism of following/believing Christ. The ritual could be different (such as the sprinkling some churches do or throwing salt over your shoulder) but in my view the act of immersion is the most symbolic part although others may disagree. I actually think the simpleness of the act of taking the sacrament is why much of the membership doesn’t get that ritual, which is also as meaningful as one makes it. Our real difference is that I don’t believe there is necessarily any authority needed to perform the rituals of baptism, the sacrament, or others. They are as meaningful as we as individuals make them. The idea that a discussion like this detracts from the “one true church” narrative is exactly the point. Other than administrative and social purposes, is there actually a need for a church or spiritual authority? My own answer to that question is no.

[Anonymous]

I have said before that I am not opposed to a people showing their commitment to God and growth (repentance) by swinging from a vine, making monkey sounds, and dropping into a large pool of milk – IF that ritual has deep meaning to them and makes sense in their culture.

I love the symbolism involved in baptism by immersion, as well as much of the symbolism I see in the temple (although I don’t love the sexist elements that still exist), but I understand that others find meaning in different symbols. I’m totally cool with that.

[Anonymous]

As the restoration unfolded, things evolved. At sne point, Joseph Smith went to the Lord to ask if Priesthood to baptize or do the sacrament was a good idea…and the Lord said “sure, that can work if you want”

Then church stuff continued evolvong like that.

The gospel was there, and they were trying to understand and live it. The church was the way they were practicing to live the gospel in the 1800s. Then it got codified.

Now today some people in stage 3 only see church and struggle to see the gospel when they focus only on church and priesthood.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

As the restoration unfolded, things evolved. At sne point, Joseph Smith went to the Lord to ask if Priesthood to baptize or do the sacrament was a good idea…and the Lord said “sure, that can work if you want”

Reminds me of the Brother of Jared as a type of JS.

JS says in prayer:

Quote:

2 O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods (of this mortal sojourn). Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.

3 Behold, O Lord, thou hast smitten us because of our iniquity, and hast driven us forth, and for these many years we have been in the wilderness (of the great apostasy); nevertheless, thou hast been merciful unto us. O Lord, look upon me in pity, and turn away thine anger from this thy people, and suffer not that they shall go forth across this raging deep in darkness [without the great “endowment of power” that I have been promising and trying to bestow upon my followers]; but behold these things [,forms, processes, and rituals that I borrowed from the Masons and modified to fit the creation narrative].

4 And I know, O Lord, that thou hast all power, and can do whatsoever thou wilt for the benefit of man; therefore touch these [forms and rituals that will herby be known simply as “the endowment” (short for endowment of power)], O Lord, with thy finger, and prepare them that they may shine forth in darkness (of mortality); and they shall shine forth unto us in the vessels (church structures) which we have prepared, that we may have light while we shall cross the sea (or mortal life).

5 Behold, O Lord, thou canst do this. We know that thou art able to show forth great power, which looks small unto the understanding of men.

And the Lord stretches forth his finger and places a divine spark or nugget into the center of the symbolism and ritual.

FYI, everything in the above quote found in parentheses or brackets is mine.

[Anonymous]

Looking at the endowment from a brother of Jared perspective is really cool. I like that. I think it really helps to contextualize it. It makes me feel loads better about the ceremonies being “watered down” over time and give me hope that the sexist elements will someday be removed.

[Anonymous]

Beefster wrote:

The church is a tool. It’s neither true nor false; it is merely the home of the true priesthood and the true prophet. I really don’t like the phrase “the church is true” because it oversimplifies things, paints things in black and white, and fails to capture important nuances. I will try not to say it anymore. (FWIW, I still hate the term “names” in relation to temple work even more because these are people, not just names)

What does it mean to reject (on some levels) the phrase “the church is true” but hold on to the phrases “true priesthood” and “true prophet?” How is one concept black and white where the others are not?

Beefster wrote:

Thus, the only essential purpose of the church is to perform saving ordinances that actually have effect. Why do we need to have a church? There’s your reason… Your one and only reason.

A few more questions.

1) Why does Beefster need an ordinance? Not people in general. Beefster.

2) Channeling Star Trek the Final Frontier: What does god need with an ordinance?

[Anonymous]

1) As far as I’m concerned, the ordinance only matters for the next life… But at this point in time I don’t have a good answer as to why I need it. Perhaps I’m caught in broken circular reasoning. I’ve sort of painted my belief into a corner at this point. I personally still believe that Joseph Smith actually saw God, so I follow that thread where it goes… And it seems to conclude that there is some importance and exclusive validity of priesthood ordinances and that there is a true living prophet of God. I’ve become more nuanced in my understanding of church leadership and am far more willing to concede to the fact that they make mistakes in judgement, sometimes massive mistakes with far-reaching consequences.

To answer the question directly, I do ordinances because I believe that I need them. I don’t know why I need them; I just believe I need them. I’m still figuring that part out.

2) I don’t think God really cares about the ritualism or symbolism of ordinances; that’s for us. He cares about the covenants… Which we will ironically break repeatedly. I guess he’s not just going to hand us salvation; we at least have to try. Or perhaps the purpose of covenants is to remind us how much we suck at keeping them so that we have to rely on Jesus.

[Anonymous]

Beefster wrote:

He cares about the covenants… Which we will ironically break repeatedly. I guess he’s not just going to hand us salvation; we at least have to try. Or perhaps the purpose of covenants is to remind us how much we suck at keeping them so that we have to rely on Jesus.

I have heard in other Christian churches the concept of the Law of Moses being as a schoolmaster. The people repeatedly fell short and even the religious leaders ended up twisting the principles and looking “beyond the mark.” This is the Old Testament/Covenant.

Enter Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer. He saves humanity collectively and individually. Because humanity has been given ample opportunity to “get there” on their own and have proven that they cannot. He merges our bank accounts. Our overdrawn balances are swallowed up in his infinite resources. We have the freedom to try to become our the best version of ourselves. We do not need to play it safe, because no matter how high we reach nor how hard we fall – Jesus will always be there to catch us… If we but place our trust in him and accept his patronage. This is the New Testament/Covenant.

[Anonymous]

Thank you so much, Roy. I think that is a fantastic perspective which really tugs on my heartstrings.

Covenants are not about “follow this or else.” It is simply a contract laying out the conditions for how to access his infinite resources and an ideal to strive for. The conditions are really nothing more than “use it liberally” and “strive to reach the ideal.”

My speculation: When we get to judgement day, Jesus won’t be saying “Why didn’t you follow commandment X?” to the ‘unfaithful’. Instead, he will be saying “Why didn’t you use my gift?” I think there will be quite a number of people- lifelong members even- who will be genuinely surprised by this question, but many of them will ultimately be let in from last second repentance.

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