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Frankly, the entire “G”od vs. “g”od argument is a bit of a straw man when it comes to Mormonism – since Mormonism never posits that we will reach a point where we do not worship our own God – or LORD GOD, if you will. The positioning of us (whether “Gods” or “gods”) as eternally subject to GOD pretty much takes the steam out of any argument that we somehow become literally and completely equal to our GOD. That might sound like semantics, but it actually is important to me – and it’s the only positioning that makes sense to me. After all, in nearly every way imaginable I now am “equal” to my earthly father – except that he still is my father, and I still reverence, honor, respect and defer to him for that simple fact. I am not “equal” to him in that one way – even though I am his spitting image and, at the very least, equal in every other objective way. (In fact, when my brother arrived last Friday and I went out to meet him, his exact words were, “What is Dad doing here?”) That one difference (that inequality) is important – just as important as the MANY similarities and our equality in all other ways.
I believe the Bible teaches as one of its central tenets that we can become like our God (that, in fact, we are commanded to do so in many, many passages), so I believe one of the key doctrinal aspects of the Great Apostasy was the loss of that tenet and the substitution of the unbridgeable chasm that separates us from Him.
Old-Timer wrote:I believe the Bible teaches as one of its central tenets that we can become like our God (that, in fact, we are commanded to do so in many, many passages), so I believe one of the key doctrinal aspects of the Great Apostasy was the loss of that tenet and the substitution of the unbridgeable chasm that separates us from Him.
Revelations 3:21-22 KJV wrote:To him that overcometh [the temptations of the world] will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.I don’t know if it gets much clearer than that … at least for those who “have an ear” and can hear what he is saying
And that ain’t even from their golden Mormon bible book thingy from that angel Macaroni ! Was that his name?
😆 Old-Timer wrote:Frankly, the entire “G”od vs. “g”od argument is a bit of a straw man when it comes to Mormonism – since Mormonism never posits that we will reach a point where we do not worship our own God – or LORD GOD, if you will. The positioning of us (whether “Gods” or “gods”) as eternally subject to GOD pretty much takes the steam out of any argument that we somehow become literally and completely equal to our GOD.
The question is not if we are subject to or will worship God the Father. That’s not even part of the argument. It’s will be able to have the power of God not just to baptize, ordain, seal or bless but to create. As I understand theosis we’re infused by the grace of Christ by virtue of his atonement to be able to become like him. There’s nothing in that that says we’ll become Gods with an eternal increase and be able to created and populate worlds. That is the conventional wisdom eventhough GBH said it wasn’t something that taught much or talked about. That is what I see as Mormonism being blasphemous in the eyes of Christianity.
As to the quote from Revelations, that ‘s the reward of the righteous, not an explict promise of godhood as JS might posit. And I don’t see Mormon speculation as to eternal progression as acheiving oneness with God as much as becoming a God and doing the things God the Father does. Going back to the question of the apostasy it was the case that the early Christian father’s did begin to teach and write about theosis but only after the time that mormons would say that the apostasy had taken place and the priesthood was no longer available.
Sorry to turn this into a debate like MM rather than a support blog.
GBSmith wrote:That is what I see as Mormonism being blasphemous in the eyes of Christianity.
Joseph Campbell calls it the “Great Blasphemy in the West.” Christ was killed by his people for saying he was God — not that he was similar to God, or that he was like God in characteristics or purity, but that he was actually God. Hallaj (the great Sufi mystic) in world of Islam was put to death for the same crime. They were both crucified, in fact, for this heresy. We westerners just don’t seem to tolerate that level of chutzpah!
Christ, one could easily assume, studied in the east. He was taken from Jerusalem and “fled to Egypt” with his parents when Herod enacted the “slaughter of the innocents.” He didn’t appear back on the scene until he was an adolescent or teenager, where the story briefly resumes in the Gospels before going silent again until his public ministry some 15-20 years later.
Quote:Sorry to turn this into a debate like MM rather than a support blog.
You are right. This is getting a little off topic.
I’m so happy. This discussion is what I needed actually. I wanted to see how different people saw things and so I for one am finding this very supportive. There is never an easy answer is there. This fact is something I am beginning to really understand and accept. Thanks so much for helping me understand the great apostasy more. I’m also getting an understanding of how mormonism differs from general Christianity as well. I guess I’m a baby when it comes to these doctrinal topics and I’m so happy to be learning. This forum is so helpful because it feels like we are all free to express our views without fear of rejection or moral judgement. It is such an effective way of learning. canadiangirl wrote:I wanted to see how different people saw things and so I for one am finding this very supportive. There is never an easy answer is there.
Nope. No easy answers. And none of us here have
THEnew correct answer to replace the old single right answer. We’re not trying to convince anyone we are right, just that new views are valuable in our spiritual journey. Like you observed so well, this is a place to bounce ideas around in a spiritually positive and supportive community, and perhaps pick up new ways to see things that work for us.
Just to add another perspective, I sometimes like to look at religious (LDS) ideas from a personal journey perspective. The metaphor of the Great Apostasy and the Restoration:
Summary. Jesus Christ comes to earth and preaches the Gospel and forms the child version of his church. The adolescent church falls into “apostasy” as it struggles on its own to find its way without the “parent” holding its hand every moment and telling it what to do. Christ promised to come again when the time is right, when everything is ready to fall apart. A “restoration” happens to the adult or mid-life church in preparation for this great transformation for the world, a process of revealing new insights on the old ideas, a more mature and sophisticated view of the same “Gospel,” an adult view (we experience this as the LDS Church).
Could we not see this as a metaphor for a human religious life? A personal journey?
Christ has a first appearance to us in our lives through upbringing or conversion (or more universally, some savior person-symbol). We accept what we are taught, but then over time we have to make a reconciliation of our assumptions with our messy, often brutal life (for most humans). We “fall away” and suffer temptations and doubt. At some point, after death or before, Christ comes again — a second coming to us individually, after the dark night of the soul (apostasy). We become mature in our faith, whatever that is, and our life is a reign of peace (because we make it so, with the help of this revelation of sorts) for 1,000 years (a metaphor for a long long time).
I am not saying this is what the authors of the scriptures really meant, or that our Church teaches this view. But it is a story that resonates with deep urges in our psyche, and this is a perspective that views it as a metaphor for the personal journey we make in life.
Brian Johnston wrote:Could we not see this as a metaphor for a human religious life? A personal journey?
Brian, I really like this metaphor and think there is a lot there to learned.
It reminds me of my journey and how when I was a young adult, going on a mission and then returning and going to college. I was taught things that in my mind were truths. In some ways, it was simple then. Black/white, right/wrong, true/false. There was book learning, for religion, for careers, for ways of life.
However, the progression then requires application of principles that were taught on my mission or taught in college, to my life and how I build a career and family and personally grow. I found that for all the theories and principles, all things require experience of adapting them to my personal situation, and by learning from experience it becomes clear and has meaning and makes sense to me. It is like there was a teaching, a falling away or apostasy by realizing things aren’t so literal and universally true, and then a restoration of meaning by re-engaging myself mid-life to adapt the theories and practices to new meaning with wisdom from experience on what truly matters. I can try to explain things to my kids, but realize they also must go through such a cycle because they can’t capture the meaning by being hearers of my words only.
Quote:James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
I could see how this also applies to gospel teachings and organizations as they have to take truth as taught by prophets or by the Savior, and apply them to practice among the masses. It makes me wonder if God is less concerned if we found the right road up the mountain, and just more concerned with whether we are making it to the top of the mountain or not…regardless of the road we take.Priesthood has its power in faith. Faith in Christ that there is power in it. That is one way to be motivated to keep moving up the mountain. I don’t think there is just one road.
There is only one road for me, personally. It is different than anyone else’s road, even others within my own religious community – and I don’t know exactly how it will take me, but I am trying to walk it intentionally and consciously and proactively. Fwiw, I posted the following yesterday on my personal blog:
Quote:We each need to live our lives according to our own light, try to share that light with others who really are interested in understanding it and quit trying to enforce our own light as the correct one for all. I can say that on an individual level even when I believe the overall theology of Mormonism is more complete than any other – that it is “true” in my eyes. I am involved in “sharing the Gospel” because of how it makes me feel and because I believe it can help others; however, I am not involved in belittling those who can’t see and accept what I see and accept, nor am I involved in sharing the Gospel solely (or even primarily) to “convert”.
I believe the principles of the Restored Gospel will help and bless others, even those who embrace the principles without embracing the Restored Church. I hope they embrace the Church, but my sharing the Gospel with them is not dependent on it.
“It’s All About Respect” (
http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2010/07/its-all-about-respect.html The solution to the concept of a great apostasy, imo, is NOT converting everyone to the LDS Church. Rather, it is enlightening everyone with the principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ – even if that means never mentioning Jesus to some but instead using their own terminology and common beliefs to accomplish the same objective.
Jesus actually didn’t establish a church during his ministry. He didn’t have to do so; he was his own church, in a way. Once he was gone, however, establishing a church became absolutely critical to spreading what he taught (“the Gospel”) to the whole world. No religious / organizational foundation – no spreading that would last. That “humanization” of principle was the beginning of apostasy, since it introduced mortals into the transmission of immortal principles – and we still are involved in the work of getting back to the ideal and the pure, even within the LDS Church.
One of the reasons I love the Allegory of the Vineyard in Jacob 5 is that is describes, in simple, clear and unmistakable terms, the condition of apostasy as an ever-present, even pervasive condition that will not be conquered until the very end. Imo, the Great Apostasy hasn’t ended; it simply has been tackled in a different and more comprehensive way.
I don’t want to sidetrack the discussion, but I do want to point out to GBSmith that my blog also quoted St Ireneaus, born around 115 AD, which is very near the time that the Book of Revelations was written. So, it is evident to me that this idea of theosis was around very early, not just 400 years after Christ. Ireneaus said, Quote:“the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are,
that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself.” Theosis and exaltation aren’t exact matches–I never said they were. There are interesting similarities.
Anyway, back to the discussion of the Apostasy…..
canadiangirl wrote:When in history do we believe the great apostacy happened?
One approach of mine is to simply say, “It did not happen, and it is not an article of our faith, irrespective of the rhetorical use we put it to.” By that approach, I can comfortably dwell as a latter day saint member without pretending to think Joseph Smith’s ministry ended any great, universal apostasy.
An alternate approach of mine is much like Brian suggested as metaphor, though I might never have used the word metaphor. The fact is that I do believe the ministry of Joseph Smith did bring “ending” to “great apostasy” that “universally” reigns in the human heart. Did his ministry bring the Great End? Certainly not! Was his ministry infallible and central for humanity? Certainly not. But his ministry was nonetheless prophetic and positive. And it appears to remain meaningful for many, as it was centrally for me through much of my life.
Tom Haws Quote:Did his ministry bring the Great End? Certainly not! Was his ministry infallible and central for humanity? Certainly not. But his ministry was nonetheless prophetic and positive.
I think it you asked most members to define the apostasy they’d say the loss of priesthood and loss of revelation through a designated authority/prophet. Given that the LDS Church believes the priesthood’s been restored and we now have a living prophet means that the “Great Apostasy” has ended. Extending the meaning to include our own fallibilities is interesting but takes it from a general level, i.e. it was gone and now it’s restored, to a personal level. That’s interesting but beside the point, the point being that the priesthood was taken and the heavens closed but now it’s all back to the way it was. I guess.
My personal feeling is that Christianity has just evolved naturally with the Holy Spirit trying to influence people along the way as regards belief, doctrine, organization, etc. and most have done the best they can with some notable bad exceptions. Whether or not those baptisms, confirmations, ordinations, and blessings over all those years were recognized and have to be done over again in temples I’ll leave for God to sort out. All I have is today. Apostasy implies a loss and a need to get back but if you take that to a personal level you have to believe in an atonement to believe that it’s possible. And that implies that if you pray someone hears you and that you’ll be able to recognize an answer. Lots of ifs.
GBSmith wrote:I think it you asked most members to define the apostasy they’d say the loss of priesthood and loss of revelation through a designated authority/prophet. Given that the LDS Church believes the priesthood’s been restored and we now have a living prophet means that the “Great Apostasy” has ended.
Right. I think you just defined “traditional believer” (AKA TBM) better than I have been able to. I am going to quote you at the TBM thread.
Tom Haws wrote:GBSmith wrote:I think it you asked most members to define the apostasy they’d say the loss of priesthood and loss of revelation through a designated authority/prophet. Given that the LDS Church believes the priesthood’s been restored and we now have a living prophet means that the “Great Apostasy” has ended.
Right. I think you just defined “traditional believer” (AKA TBM) better than I have been able to. I am going to quote you at the TBM thread.
Yeah, most members do believe this – but does that make it “true?”
GBSmith wrote:Yeah, most members do believe this – but does that make it “true?”
Yes. If they believe that, it is true and real. All kinds of real evidence will appear in their vision to confirm it to them also.
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