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Brian Johnston wrote:GBSmith wrote:
Yeah, most members do believe this – but does that make it “true?”
Actually, that’s cwald but I agree.
I just spent the past half hour reading this thread: Fun conversation. Early on, someone paraphrased a line from
A River Runs Through It, something about Baptists being dumber than Presbyterians. As a movie buff, I need to clarify that it was the son of a Presbyterian minister narrating who said, “Methodists are Baptists who can read.” I was hoping to take the conversation up a notch, with this question: “Assuming it is a historical event, what is gained by the notion of a great apostasy?” Or how about, “How does the notion of a great apostasy differ from the perspective of one interpreting from Fowler’s 3rd, 4th and 5th stages of faith (or Peck’s 2nd, 3rd and 4th)?”
It’s been over a decade since I’ve benefited from the notion of a great apostasy, much less
TheGreat Apostasy. Nathan
I see a benefit for the church movement to be able to differentiate it from other churches and for selling the story to new members to gain brand loyalty. I don’t see overall benefit for all of God’s children.
Well said, Heber13. Over the pulpit at Cooper Ward, Gilbert Stapley Stake two Sundays ago, a full-time missionary said essentially what you said. As I recall, he was reading from Preach My Gospel, and he said that “the pearl of the restoration is easier to appreciate when presented against the blackness of the Great Apostasy.” “Ahhh!” thought I. “That explains it, then. Merely a rhetorical persuasive device.” Nathan wrote:“How does the notion of a great apostasy differ from the perspective of one interpreting from Fowler’s 3rd, 4th and 5th stages of faith (or Peck’s 2nd, 3rd and 4th)?”
Can you rephrase the question?
Quote:what is gained by the notion of a great apostasy?”
I agree with Tom and Heber. For us, it is a bit of a rhetorical device to differentiate why a restoration was necessary. It gives greater validity to the Mormon movement.
Quote:“How does the notion of a great apostasy differ from the perspective of one interpreting from Fowler’s 3rd, 4th and 5th stages of faith
Hmmm, interesting question. I would say my wife is a stage 3, and I am in stage 4 or 5 (I’m not sure which–I don’t know the levels that well.) From her perspective, I am approaching apostasy, and she is not at all comfortable with it. From my perspective, I’m no where near apostasy–my faith is growing. In fact, I think my faith has grown tremendously in the past few years.
Looking at it from a different perspective, say a Stage 3 Mormon vs a Stage 3 Catholic, both view the others as completely in apostasy. So, a person’s perspective has a lot to do with this notion of apostasy.
Oh Nathan, thanks for the movie clarification. I knew I didn’t quite have it down right, but it was close.
Heber, I concur. Brand recognition, is one benefit. Another is boundary maintenance (as you also seemed to imply). It is a lot easier, albeit disingenuous, to explain differences via the Great Apostasy. This teaching draws the line in the sand pretty clearly. I can see that mission presidents and bishops could benefit from using the Great Apostasy in such a way. I teach early morning seminary (a class of 25, here in Stuttgart Germany). This fall the subject matter will be Church History and the D&C. The Great Apostasy will be discussed and understood much differently by my class members than by their 40-year-old teacher. Rephrasing the question for Tom: “How does the notion of a great apostasy differ from the perspective of one interpreting from Fowler’s 3rd, 4th and 5th stages of faith (or Peck’s 2nd, 3rd and 4th)?”
From Fowler’s 3rd Stage of Faith, a Latter-day Saint
needsthe teaching of theGreat Apostasy. It helps order a quid-pro-quo, cause-and-effect-driven interpretation of human experience and history. It explains difference; it provides meaning. Are those people currently working from a stage 3 experience wrong, or bad? Not according to Fowler (or Peck’s stage 2). In a developmental sense, most all of us need to pass through stage 3 in the maturation process. Some of us will never leave it. And there are necessary tasks in our society that are best facilitated from a stage 3 place of interpretation: elements of teaching, law enforcement, national defense. I think it likely that the notion of the Great Apostasy may also be beneficial in the 4th and 5th stages too, although in significantly different ways. Tom, from the short time I’ve been a part of this forum I’ve observed yours is a thoughtful faith. Thank you.
Brother Heretic, Sharing from such a personal perspective, even more than the ideas exchanged, is what makes this forum so valuable to me. Thank you.
If I may, I would share with you that from the vantage point of my professional experience, where couples are divided by Fowler’s stages, it is most often as you described: men venture from stage three before their wives. For those in stages 4 or 5 who can continue/resume to authentically live the gospel, they will find the tension in marriage to be manageable. It’s those who wear an air of superiority and liberation that alienate their spouses. As you shared in your post, your faith is growing. I’m guessing your wive senses this too, even if she is “uncomfortable” with it. I’m guessing too, that you’re on your way to a stronger and healthier marriage as well.
Quote:It’s those who wear an air of superiority and liberation that alienate their spouses.
Amen, Nathan. Amen.
In a Stage 3 framework, people have to start building their “story of stories,” as Fowler calls it. They are fully immersed in the flow of their own group “story” of faith content — like a fish in water, still not conscious of what water is because it is everywhere. BUT in this framework, they begin to see that other people have “stories” that are different (other religions, other denominations). They recognize that others are sincerely believing other ideas, often at odds with their own. So, they have to construct an overarching story that explains why all the various stories exist — their “story of stories.” In Mormonism, the group provides this nicely pre-packaged story to the members in the form of The Great Apostasy and The Restoration. It explains why the other 99.9% of the people on the planet aren’t Mormon (yet). This is vital to functional faith in this state of seeing the world. It is also a handy method, in general, for dividing the world into convenient groups of “good guys” and “bad guys.”
I’m not sure how Stage 4 and Stage 5 styles of thinking would interpret the concept of a Great Apostasy. I’ll take a stab at it. I would think that a (mostly) Stage 4 person that used an LDS concept of Great Apostasy would go one of two directions: If they were stage 4 within orthodox LDS faith content, they would see it as an explanation for their personal truths, as a “proof” they are right and others are wrong. It can’t be both ways. Not all of these people on the planet have the right answer. *I* do, and the others are victims of a Great Apostasy in varying degrees (all the ideas that don’t match mine). I’m not sure how someone in Stage 4 who abandoned their LDS faith content would functionally use a specifically LDS version of the Great Apostasy. I suppose someone shifting to some other form of restoration or primitive/fundamentalist faith might use the concept in a more broad sense, justifying their newly acquired “truths.”
Stage 5? This is gonna be pretty hard to define. But I would guess that Stage 5 style thinkers on this subject are going to have to play pretty fast and loose with it consciously as a metaphor for some part of their life journey in faith. They would probably tend to interpret the LDS version of the Great Apostasy story in some sort of universalistic, mythological sense of people being separated from the divine and returning. They might also decide, I suppose, to allow themselves to consciously dive into this story and experience it literally, using it as an explanation for the diversity in belief in the world. This would not be quite the same as the Stage 3 perspective because they could jump in and out of it, and on some level know that it is just a valuable story for them to experience, and not an objective reality they are attached to. Stage 5-ers are probably not going to lead the charge to burn the “others” at the stake for heresy based on this explanation of other faiths
Good explanation, Brian. I will take another stab, just from my point of view.
I would think many people in stage 4 reject an Apostasy happened because it would anger them that a God would do that to so many of his children for so many centuries and allow such evils to be done in his name. They just cant believe in a God that would do that!!! That line of thinking could then take them to doubting any “truth” ever was established … So you can’t have a falling away if there was nothing to fall away from. Stage 4 would see stage 3 claims of restoration as just another attempt to build a story to control people, but they reject the story is believable and put up fences around themselves to protect themselves from the perceived attempts to “control” them. They won’t let that happen to them again!
Stage 5 might empathize with the stage 4 person, but sees the good the restoration is doing for stage 3 folks. But the stage 5 person no longer wants the walls built up around themselves, so they tear them down and reengage with others. They see the problems with the apostasy/restoration story as a beautiful thing that holds value in their experience going through life, with different stages in their personal journey. The paradox may be that God never stopped loving his children nor stopped guiding them, including working through the many churches and councils and individual prophets and teachers, but the church authority to perform ordinances had fallen away, and later restored through angelic visits as a reminder that He still does intervene, that spiritual development through earthly practices are helpful to us and we should be engaged to something and be about our father’s business…not because we are right and no other church mattered between the death of the apostles and Joseph Smith, but because whatever we choose to be involved in that draws us closer to His Love is whatever we need individually….and therefore religion is a great thing to be involved in…but for a deeper level of metaphorical reasons and less literalness to the story.
I’m not sure I quite got stage 5 right on the apostasy…because I’m not sure I understand how someone in stage 5 views necessity for authority, other than a necessary administrative thing…but less important than the meaning behind ordinance work.
Not really dealing with the Great apostasy – but this comment caught my eye. Nathan wrote:If I may, I would share with you that from the vantage point of my professional experience, where couples are divided by Fowler’s stages, it is most often as you described: men venture from stage three before their wives.
I think this is true general speaking. I have been fortunate. After a decade of stage 4, I finally got the guts to talk to my wife about it. She has been
veryunderstanding — and recently as I have gotten braver and told her more and more, it appears that she is not the TBM I had thought she was — she says she went through a stage 4 period in college before we met, and she feels she has a pretty good foothold in stage 5 now, which is probably why it doesn’t bother her really that i don’t believe the LDS church is the “one true church on the face of the earth.” She doesn’t really care what I believe. 😯 Probably should have talked about it years ago – but we were both thinking the other was TBM and “didn’t want to rock the boat” – our 17 years of marriage have been good, why do anything to mess it up?Quote:we were both thinking the other was TBM and “didn’t want to rock the boat” – our 17 years of marriage have been good, why do anything to mess it up?
I think that could be said of SO many members with other members. I wish we could be more open in group settings, but it really isn’t appropriate / helpful in so many situations that it’s much easier simply to go with the flow and find individuals now and then over the course of time.
Yet another reason this forum is so valuable. Brian Johnston wrote:Stage 5-ers are probably not going to lead the charge to burn the “others” at the stake for heresy based on this explanation of other faiths
I love it! You spin a great yarn, Brian.
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