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Had a “surprise” inspection from the SP and councilors today at church. In priesthood meeting, we went over the gospel principles manual lesson about Priesthood. I wish I could tell you that it went well but — I was able to just keep my mouth shut for most of the lesson, until the SP made the comment that “the purpose of the priesthood is to gather 1. gather Israel, and 2. serve our fellow man — and it doesn’t matter how well intentioned our non LDS neighbors are, their works will amount to nothing in the end unless they accept the restored gospel/priesthood.” It hurt. I made a few comments – that I probably shouldn’t have made, and pulled out my ensign and read some of Packer’s talk — but I’m afraid I probably said more than I should have. I doubt that anyone in the room didn’t know that I was “upset” by the comments being said and that I am really not pulling the company line on this issue. Oh well – I guess I’ll just have to see how the chips fall.
I think there are many different perspectives of what Stage 4 can look like. I think Heber and Brian’s explanations are valid, but I don’t think either of them define me. I don’t know much about psychology, so I feel a bit dangerous venturing into this territory. I’ve been called a TBMH (that’s TBM Heretic) and an anti-Mormon on my blog. I like the concept of the Great Apostasy, and I think it is a good explanation for what happened with the early church. But I hold much less to the idea that “this is the only true church” idea. CWald has indicated that he believes that he and I don’t share many common beliefs. What I get from that comment is that he views me as a mostly faithful apologist for the church. Yet my wife told me last week that she wanted someone who was a “spiritual leader” in the home. I nearly fell off the chair when she said that. I told her that I read the scriptures more than she, I bear testimony in church more than she, and I literally talk about religion every single day. She responded that she knew I used the moniker “mormon heretic”, and she said, “do you understand what a heretic is? It’s someone against the church.” I felt like a villian instantly.
I explained that Joseph Smith was a heretic. Martin Luther was a heretic, and Jesus was a heretic. She responded, “Oh, so you mean it in a good way???” Yes, but Jesus, Joseph, and Martin certainly upset the established order didn’t they?
So, once again, this notion of apostasy can be so subjective. Joseph, Jesus, and Martin were all considered apostates, and restorationists. I think it is funny that some people view me as a pretty straight arrow when it comes to the church, but I often have to bite my tongue at church as Cwald did today. It feels so good to be able to open up a bit on websites such as this, where I can express my true heretical feelings. I find that apostasy can be in the eye of the beholder.
cwald wrote:I made a few comments – that I probably shouldn’t have made, and pulled out my ensign and read some of Packer’s talk — but I’m afraid I probably said more than I should have. I doubt that anyone in the room didn’t know that I was “upset” by the comments being said and that I am really not pulling the company line on this issue. Oh well – I guess I’ll just have to see how the chips fall.
I consider myself to be very disciplined when it comes to restraint about making comments like that. I’ve done that too though. It also happened to me about 6 months ago when the Stake Presidency was visiting and took over priesthood for a “presentation” on the blessings of the temple. The SP was going on and on about how we are slacking, temple attendance was low, we need to commit to spending more time going to the temple, etc., etc.
I raised my hand and said basically “I look around me and see brothers in the priesthood, and I see them spending a lot of their time serving the members of the ward and the community. They are also trying to support a family, and even spend a little time with them in between work and church callings. It sounds like an issue of time management, not that we are sitting around with nothing to do. So of all the other things the Church asks us to do, which should we decide
NOTto do so we can make more time for this?” Yeah … there was an uncomfortable pause as they digested that … But you know what? Looking back, I think that probably needed to be pointed out.
The world (and our church in particular) really does need a few “heretics.” It’s healthy.
cwald wrote:the SP made the comment that “the purpose of the priesthood is to gather 1. gather Israel, and 2. serve our fellow man — and
it doesn’t matter how well intentioned our non LDS neighbors are, their works will amount to nothing in the end unless they accept the restored gospel/priesthood.” It hurt. I made a few comments – that I probably shouldn’t have made, and pulled out my ensign and read some of Packer’s talk — but I’m afraid I probably said more than I should have. I doubt that anyone in the room didn’t know that I was “upset” by the comments being said and that I am really not pulling the company line on this issue. Oh well – I guess I’ll just have to see how the chips fall.
See? This is exactly the type of precious vulnerability that a forum such as this facilitates. Thank you brothers cwald and heretic for your personal and transcendent stories.
Two comments, if I may. First, cwald’s Stake President has the responsibility to perform boundary maintenance. He benefits from a particularly narrow view of the Great Apostasy. Of course, to a degree, what his Stake President said accurately reflects LDS teaching. Didn’t the Prophet say something like baptizing without the proper authority is as efficacious as baptizing a bag of sand? Then again, there is a sense in which this Stake President misspoke or exaggerated his point. Using the same source, the Prophet Joseph Smith also taught that that righteous men and women of many faiths will remain through the scourge of the last days and witness the millennial reign of the Savior: a terrestrial kingdom. Who knows what final judgment will look like, or if there will even be one. Let’s just say it resembles the teaching that each of the Savior’s roles–Creator, Redeemer, and Judge–have and will involve members of the Priesthood: that those earthly judges in Israel will participate in a similar event in the world to come. I suspect cwald’s Stake President will be relieved to discover that God’s mercy won’t hold him to his rigid understanding of God’s justice.
In such situations as cwald’s, I believe each of us needs to have the discipline and composure to sit still and be quiet. And yet, we also need to have the discipline and composure to stand up and respectfully challenge narrow-minded teaching. Like any recovering addict can tell you from the Serenity Prayer, they key is having the wisdom to know the difference: to know when speaking up will hurt more than it will help. Of course, none of us can know for sure. But my gut tells me that if we can keep our defensiveness in check, we honor God and our fellow men when we speak up in such instances. Chances are, your Stake President is speaking from his own personal frustrations with similar-minded folk outside the Church. Perhaps it’s helpful to imagine the following exchange for a future confrontation:
“President, when I hear you say this, I’m afraid some will misunderstand you as endorsing a sense of superiority over, or animosity against, our brothers and sisters of other traditions. Of course, I understand you are saying that the further light and knowledge we enjoy makes us all-the-more responsible for demonstrating patience, long suffering, kindness and love unfeigned. I just wanted to help clarify this. Of course, if I’m wrong, we could step outside and settle this like men.” (grin)
The second comment is to heretic: great exchange with your wife. Your choice to appropriate the term “heretic” is helpful. I have similarly found the word “Protestant” useful. We are called to protest injustice in the world. Of course terms such as “heretic”, “protestant”, or even “saint” conjure notions of separateness and distinctiveness. Your ability to function as a heretic from within demonstrates a maturity I too rarely encounter.
Speaking of maturity, Russ Hill is a friend of mine. He’s an Orthodox Priest and Chaplain here in Stuttgart with me. A while back I introduced myself and him to a Catholic Priest with these words, “This is Chaplain Hill; he’s Orthodox. I’m Chaplain Kline; I’m heterodox.” Chaplain Hill laughed so hard he blew snot from his nose. The Catholic priest has since come to appreciate my humor too. My point, if we take seriously the Lord and his gospel, we’ll know better than to take ourselves too seriously.
Oh, one final story in defence of those Stake Presidents out there not representative of the incidents relayed above: Last month, my temple recommend interview concluded with a refreshing conversation about how the German saints were overly cynical and American saints were inexcusably naive. The Stake President is an engineer, and very rigid in his thinking–but not so rigid he doesn’t see that most rules and policies have exceptions. While a missionary in the early 80s he struggled with organic evolution and a few items of Church history. He told me, “I eventually realized I was restricting how God works for us.” I told him that it is human to want to put God in a box. He had never before heard the metaphor, and laughed.
cwald, My heart goes out to you. I have felt very similar emotions in similar situations.
I was visiting another ward yesterday, and the HPG discussion about the Priesthood was GREAT. The instructor has a deep, voice-of-God voice – which helped 
Relief Society, however, was a bit of a disaster. My son’s Catholic girlfriend was with us, and the lesson started with the statement that a deacon has more authority than the Pope. Awkward doesn’t even begin to describe it. She admitted on the way home that she tuned out most of the rest of the lesson – and that the free-flowing structure of class participation was more than a little weird for her.
Wow, all great stories that benefit me. Cwald…I like your courage and honesty. No one should be above hearing our opinions if we are sincere.
MH, thanks for sharing. I agree with you that apostasy is in the eye of the beholder. One of the beautiful teachings of our church is personal revelation and free agency.
Brian, I agree with your reservation to withild comments and sometimes not. Temperance is a virtue.
Nathan, great stories. Humor is a wonderful way to show you spirit smiles, even when discussing deep or serious topics.
Ray, I appreciate hearing how the experience can be great and disturbing in the same Sunday. I needed to be reminded of that.
I wish you all were in my ward.
Heber13, I wish that too!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just think of Stay LDS as your Ward away from your Ward! 😆 Really, I love the interactions here, and I take away a lot more spiritual nourishment here than I do at church. It is a little bit odd having virtual ward members, but I really do think the kind of home/visiting teaching we do here is much more frequent than once/month and much more valuable!Old-Timer wrote:I was visiting another ward yesterday, and the HPG discussion about the Priesthood was GREAT. The instructor has a deep, voice-of-God voice – which helped
Nice, there are good lessons in such things. LOTR was written by an RC of course, and it is about greed and lust for power as you say.
mormonheretic wrote:I take away a lot more spiritual nourishment here than I do at church.
MH: you said it perfectly. That is why I love being here and keep participating. I don’t get much nourishment at church, but I take it as my responsibility for that nourishment, not the bishop’s, so I need to look for it in multiple locations…including my brick and mortar ward, but also here at this website. I learn a lot by reading all of your thoughts. I need it in my life more than you probably all realize. Thanks for influencing my life. [group hug]
Quote:I take away a lot more spiritual nourishment here than I do at church.
Please understand the spirit of what I am about to say:
I don’t expect to take away a lot of spiritual nourishment from church, so anything I get is a gift. I attend church to provide whatever nourishment I can for others – and each person can eat only what that person can eat. Call it what you will, but I believe in inspiration / perception / discernment / empathetic understanding / etc. – so I attend church trying to tap into it.
The key for me is balance. I gain here and privately – and occasionally at church; I give at church and on my blog – and occasionally here. That works for me.
I’m not going to diss this site, I get a lot out of it, and it answers questions, queries and doubts which I can’t voice otherwise. However, it’s no substitute for pleasant real life socializing.
Yes, I get it SamBee. Socializing is an important aspect. I love to razz all the BYU fans at church, but other than that, I don’t relate much to all the farmers in the area.
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