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Heber13 wrote:
Do you think there is a layer of sexism in the story?
Of course there is. By modern standards, just about anything before the 60s is sexist in some way.Within historical context, perhaps it would look a little different.
Women at one point pretty much needed a man to take care of them. Even being in the desert with their husbands-to-be would have been an advantage. Ishmael may have seen it as a status symbol to essentially be the grandfather of some future society, giving him the incentive.
Then of course there are the spiritual reasons…
It seems that the “Bad guys” of the scriptures tend to be misunderstood and judged harshly. When I was reading in Alma the other day, I was in the part where Ammon was bragging about his success among the Lamanites, to which Aaron rebuked him for being self-righteous, followed by Ammon’s counter-rebuke. In his little bragging session, he repeatedly mentioned that the Lamanites were a “loathesome people” or something like that and that he had brought them to the light. I thought at that moment, “Isn’t that a little vindictive? Harsh? Racist?” and after seeing this thread this morning, I thought about it some more. Not all of the Lamanites were thieves and murderers. A few were, sure. Some were warmongers. But the Anti-Nephi Lehis? They were industrious and productive and they came by their wealth honestly (or at least it seems that way since most of the fighting they were mentioned to be involved in was self defense- though there were probably other aspects to it since they buried their swords, but let’s just keep things simple for now). It’s downright judgmental to lump them in with the rest of the Lamanites as awful people. They weren’t. They were good people. That’s why they were open to the gospel. Ammon’s response to being rebuked was in error IMO. He was being self-righteous and judgmental and he masked it with canned humility.
Heber13 wrote:
Since Lehi was a prophet, and Nephi was righteous, then groups would follow them because they have the gospel. And then…they hold dances and hookup and make a life of it and raise their children in the church.
I don’t think that Laman and Lemuel saw their father or Nephi as prophets or that they held the gospel. Laman and Lemuel are described as being like unto the Jews who wanted to destroy Lehi in Jerusalem.
I think that Laman and Lemuel followed their dad out of Jerusalem the first time out of obedience to their father. I think that Laman and Lemuel went back for the plates in part to scope out a return to Jerusalem as well as family obedience. Coming back to Jerusalem for wives is a no-brainer for motive. Leaving Jerusalem with Ishmael’s family in tow… motives might have been love, duty, or no better options in their minds (broke unless subsidized by Ishmael), not sure… It could be that the angel’s admonition (mid-plate retrieval in saga) left something in their brain – maybe they realized that their fates were sealed to the fates of Lehi, Nephi, and Sam.
I used to condemn Laman and Lemuel pretty well because of my black and white thinking. Now, I view them more compassionately. I would love to sit down and interview either one of them and ask, “If you saw an angel (as recorded by Nephi) and heard him give both of you individually personal counsel, what did you do about it and how did it influence your life?”
To me, I view Laman and Lemuel as a concept…not literally people (as I don’t take the BoM literally). Kind of like how I view Satan, or Adam and Eve. Symbolic personifications of the ideas of being murmerers or selfish or jealous or carnal side of human nature…which as Roy has kind of said, is inside all of us. We are both Nephi and Laman. Let the battle begin! Fair enough. So the interview would be sitting down with the Laman/Lemuel side of me and asking “If you heard [a revelation for you direct from the source], what did you/are you doing about it and how did it/is it influencing your life?”
It still works as a form of introspection…
AmyJ wrote:
So the interview would be sitting down with the Laman/Lemuel side of me and asking “If you heard [a revelation for you direct from the source], what did you/are you doing about it and how did it/is it influencing your life?”It still works as a form of introspection…
exactly…liken the scriptures to us. It can help us make decisions today when the bishop gives me an assignment. Last week, the bishop asked me and my wife if we’d prepare some emergency preparedness stuff to present to the stake event coming up.
My Laman was strong in me…
Quote:1 Ne 3:14 14 But Laman fled out of his presence, and told the things which Laban had done, unto us. And we began to be exceedingly sorrowful
I wanted to flee from the bishop.I am still wrestling inside to make a choice to get involved and make something that may be of use to others in preparing first aid kits …I mean…with all the hurricanes and earthquakes lately…maybe it is a good idea to work as a community to help everyone prepare for things.
That’s my Nephi trying to get me to grudgingly go along with an assignment while my bishop dwells in a tent.
Ah, but is your inner Nephi absolutely convinced that the man in the tent gave you the Word of God to act upon? That is the the crux of the matter I think. Frankly speaking…I doubt it. But he is a good dude, and some first aid kits are a good idea for people in the stake. If he asked me to do something that I felt was not from God, I would decline.
There is a freedom and peace that comes from viewing church and leaders in a new light…something that is positive in my life, and something I seek to sustain, while also owning my own faith to think and do those things that are “godly” or having strength to decline without anger.
The battlegrounds shrink.
Like Heber and some others, I don’t think the BoM is a literal history. But putting that aside and considering the question of how Laman and Lemuel could see an angel and then go right on rebelling and murmuring, may I offer perhaps an additional insight? Considering that according to the text, Nephi would have been writing his account of that part of his experience some 30 years after the events described. That is an awfully long time to have passed. Consider events in your life from 30 years ago and the level of detail you remember and maybe events that you have perhaps embellished over time.
I offer the possibility that over those 30 years Nephi’s recollection of the angel could have become embellished and more of a concrete experience over time. Maybe he perceived divine intervention, sensed the very presence of an angel but in the retelling of that event perhaps it became more of a concrete and miraculous event (not unlike the development of the first vision).
So maybe the fact that Laman and Lemuel rebel so willingly after seeing an angel is because they didn’t see an angel. Perhaps their recollection of that experience would be quite different than Nephi’s. So maybe another reason not to be so quick to judge them.
Of course, for me this is all just fun and interesting discussion because it’s a bit of a moot point with a non-historical perspective. But as part of literary analysis and trying to see a piece of literature from a new perspective to gain new insights, it still has value (and even more value for me) to discuss.
DoubtingTom wrote:
over those 30 years Nephi’s recollection of the angel could have become embellished and more of a concrete experience over time.
I think we all do this. Maybe some more than others, but I’m pretty sure there have been some stories shared here on this forum about what bishops said to them that offend them or make them feel unwanted at church, and it may be just how we retell stories emphasizing certain points or things we remember how we felt to express our ideas or the meaning we are sharing.
DoubtingTom wrote:
I offer the possibility that over those 30 years Nephi’s recollection of the angel could have become embellished and more of a concrete experience over time. Maybe he perceived divine intervention, sensed the very presence of an angel but in the retelling of that event perhaps it became more of a concrete and miraculous event (not unlike the development of the first vision).So maybe the fact that Laman and Lemuel rebel so willingly after seeing an angel is because they didn’t see an angel. Perhaps their recollection of that experience would be quite different than Nephi’s. So maybe another reason not to be so quick to judge them.
DT beat me to it. Recently, I have been studying the testimony of the 11 witnesses. It has been interesting the inconsistencies that have been given in their different personal accounts. Sometimes they are all over the map with perhaps half of the accounts saying that it was a spiritual event seen in vision, or with spiritual eyes, or as a man sees a “city through a mountain.” IOW, something profound appears to have happened but there is not agreement as to what exactly.
Applying this the BoM story. Laman as the birthright son is repeatedly passed over and his inheritance is squandered to nothing. Nephi is given the favor and the deference. In Nephi’s story his usurping of Laman’s birthright is justified. We know because the “angel” says so, “Why do ye smite your younger brother with a rod? Know ye not that the Lord hath chosen him to be a ruler over you?”
Maybe Nephi was knocked unconscious and had a vision of an angel swooping in to give his older brothers the ultimate comeuppance. Then, 30 years later, after Laman and company have departed from the group and Nephi has become the leader of the remainder – the story of the angel appearing and justifying Nephi’s rise to power is what gets chiseled into the plates for posterity.
Ray — the part your blog doesn’t seem to address is the fact that when asked if they’d inquired of the Lord, they said they hadn’t even asked yet. THAT can be perceived as lazy if they never even bothered to ask in prayer, doesn’t it? Sure, from an orthodox perspective – but if they had asked at some point and knew they simply were not “visionary”, what would be the point? I’ve never asked for a vision in my life. Would Nephi condemn me for it? Perhaps.
Within the confines of the story… Remember, the story is only told from one perspective. I know the BoM story is a little more specific than this but consider things we do in our day.
Scenario: on October 2nd someone writes in their journal, “This past weekend we heard the words of the Lord. I was inspired but may family paid the words no mind.” Then 1500 years later someone digs up the journal. They might reach a similar conclusion, how could their family not pay any mind to the Lord speaking? and miss the nuance that the person that wrote the entry was listening to church leaders but talked about them as if they were words directly from the lord.
Yeah, the angel angle is more explicit in the BoM but if I’m being honest, once I shed the view that “Nephi is always right” I began to see why Laman and Lemuel wouldn’t like Nephi. Nephi could be insufferable.
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