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which I’m not going to type for one reason and another. We’ve all heard of slightly ridiculous teachings on this subject, so what should we make of it?
Is it a thought crime (since it involves one person – usually) or degradation, or something which has been made out to be far more evil than it actually is?
I was at boarding school for a while – I doubt there was a teenage boy there who didn’t do it occasionally.
Anyway, this is my first post on one of the two “elephants in the room” – one of them being sex and the other the C word (not sex! see the other post)
SamBee wrote:…We’ve all heard of slightly ridiculous teachings on this subject, so what should we make of it?…Is it a thought crime…or degradation, or something which has been made out to be far more evil than it actually is?…I was at boarding school for a while – I doubt there was a teenage boy there who didn’t do it occasionally.
My favourite euphemism for this that has been used by Church leaders is “self abuse.” Really?, if this is truly half as bad and bad for you as the Church likes to pretend that it is then I guess my question is where is the harm and who are the victims of any injustice caused by this supposedly grievous sin? I just don’t see any negative consequences anywhere in most cases. In fact, my guess is that far more actual harm in terms of unnecessary pain and suffering has resulted from the Church trying to crack down on this so much and give people such a guilt-trip about it.
They can make up imaginary reasons to try to explain why this is such a serious “sin” all they want but as far as I’m concerned this will only serve to hurt their own credibility over the long run. According to Spencer W. Kimball this also leads to homosexuality. Well if that were actually the case then I would expect a solid majority of men (LDS or not) to be gay by now. What’s worse is that the Church has encouraged members to confess this as an expected part of the “repentance” process. Does this really need to be anyone else’s business? I can’t imagine much good coming out of this level of invasion of people’s privacy. It mostly just causes embarrassment and makes people uncomfortable and it’s probably not going to help cure people of this permanently nearly as much as they think it will, so what’s the point of all this?
I great article written by Rabbi Shmuley talked about “sin” from an interesting perspective. The article was focused mostly on a different topic, but the main point really stuck with me. He talked about two types of “sin,” and mentioned them being on two tablets that Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai. One tablet had moral commandments. The other had religious commandments. Moral commandments, or the violation of them, caused harm to others — murder, adultery, theft, lying, etc. Religious commandments involved prohibitions against ritual rules — keeping the Sabbath holy, not eating kosher, rules about clothing, etc.
I thought it was an interesting way to break things down. His point was that “sins” that harmed nobody else were of a more minor nature. He was talking about homosexuality in particular, pointing out that nobody was harmed in a gay relationship between consenting adults. There are 613 commandments in Torah. So you fail at this one? OK. There are 612 other ones left for you to work on, some are more important than others, so use your time doing the most good in the service of God.
Personally, I don’t like the way the subject has been handled in the past. I believe there have been some suggestions that have gone too far. However, if we talk about addiction (of any kind) I think it is useful to reflect on our personal habits. Do I crave chocolate or soda …or junk food …or ANY thing else to an unhealthy degree? Do I sleep longer than is needful? I think these are all great things to personally reflect on. I don’t like the idea of an authority figure telling you what you NEED to do in these areas, but I do think it can be helpful to bring up the subject and make suggestions. I see depths of wisdom in the saying: “Moderation in all things.” Personally, my level of moderation for alcoholic beverages is zero. I also abstain from other things. I try to eat what is needed for my health — and enjoy some of the simple pleasures in life as I do.
Some things are harmful. People around us may be impacted by our allowing ourselves to be harmed. If I allow my health to go downhill my wife would pay a big price for it. If I was addicted to porn my wife would feel much grief from it. Other people may feel or react differently, unique situations will call for unique solutions. I don’t think there is any single perfect path for all people to walk in life where they all eat breakfast at the same time and tie their shoes in the same way — but I do think it is helpful to consider your surroundings and the bigger picture …and think carefully about everything you do.
How’s that for avoiding the subject? I think people should be given ideas to think about without mandating every little action. Didn’t Jesus walk too far on the sabbath?
My husband reffered our boys to this site http://boysunderattack.com/masturbation.html He said that really helped them feel more normal about this issue. After my mission I did it alot since I figured it was better than fornication, but always felt guilty. Now, I see it as it has a place and a time for things. I confessed once to a counselor about it during a temple interview. He was a medical doctor and said, “Yeah, the church says its wrong, but I just wouldn’t mention it again to anyone.”I suppose if you fantasize about someone’s wife, then that’s negative, but it’s better than consummating it. I don’t believe it makes people gay, unless another party is involved. And that does happen sometimes in childhood.
As for self-abuse, it’s also referred to as self-love.
Either way, it’s more common than people (or wives and mothers*) give credit for.
* Without even mentioning the female equivalent, which I gather is less common.
Orson – this might surprise you, but I think I like your take today on this issue 😯 I think it is a good way to approach the topic in a positive manner that would teach one about personally responsibility without the “end of the world” mentality that is so prevalent today. I personally think we, as an LDS church, have not handled the issue well in general. We have not handled the entire sex issue well in general, IMO.HOWEVER, just so you know. The next time this is talked about at church, I WILL quote you and just say out loud
“moderation in all things”and leave it at that. 
I did hear a great story from a bishop. Don’t know if it true or not, but he was telling me about interviewing a young man from the stake (no names) and he asked the kid if “he had a problem with masturbation?” The kid responded with a straight face, “no Bishop I don’t have a problem, I’m pretty good at it actually.”
SamBee wrote:
As for self-abuse, it’s also referred to as self-love.Yes, abuse is a horrible description.
Quote:Either way, it’s more common than people (or wives and mothers*) give credit for.
Yeah. I walked in on my 12 year old a couple of months ago. Wife was pretty freaked out about it – end of the world type mentality. I think I handled it much better than my Dad handled it when I got caught.
We had a long and beautiful thread on this back in August 2009. Here’s a link to what I said there that I would say here if the atmosphere were right. http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=730&start=40#p8140 
I wanted to add, myself believing in the “natural” way of life, that there is I believe absolutely nothing wrong with the M word .. keep in mind all things in moderation, of course. However, porn would be a totally different can of worms. They scenes aren’t real, the relationships aren’t real, often body parts aren’t real .. just a whole ton of unnatural things going on .. That would be our jacked up image of sex and the human body according to the image the media and entertainment industry throw at us. Thats my opinion on it .. Oh btw M’ing to a sappy romance novel (or whatever the men like to say the ladies do) is pretty fictional as well … People have the right to M how they wish but I think people should know there is a difference between the act and what they decide to compliment the act with. So much for my steel trap mind. I completely forgot that thread. cwald, that is a fabulous story – true or not. I burst out laughing and had to explain to my wife. Thanks goodness our daughters are asleep.
😆 🙄 😳 That reminds me of a school story of mine… I was showing a new teacher around, and he says “It’s like a warren.”
“Yes, sir, but we’re not allowed to act like rabbits in here.”
😆 At least he saw the funny side of it. A boy and a girl from the grade below has just been expelled for… you know.
But there were many stories about folk getting caught, which reminds me of Kurt Cobain talking about “Smells Like Teen Spirit” – he said something like “It’s like the boy who gets caught with the lingerie catalog at school… it’s all he’s ever remembered for.”
Anyway, back to the church… I never grew up in it, so I don’t have the experience of being an LDS teen. If I have children of my own, I’ll try not to be too hard on them about this (definitely no pun intended) – I hear horror stories about suicides over the matter.
Orson wrote:Personally, I don’t like the way the subject has been handled in the past. I believe there have been some suggestions that have gone too far…
Some things are harmful. People around us may be impacted by our allowing ourselves to be harmed…If I was addicted to porn my wife would feel much grief from it…I do think it is helpful to consider your surroundings and the bigger picture …and think carefully about everything you do. LaLaLove wrote:…I believe absolutely nothing wrong with the M word…
However, porn would be a totally different can of worms. They scenes aren’t real, the relationships aren’t real, often body parts aren’t real .. just a whole ton of unnatural things going on.. That would be our jacked up image of sex and the human body according to the image the media and entertainment industry throw at us. Thats my opinion on it .. Oh btw M’ing to a sappy romance novel (or whatever the men like to say the ladies do) is pretty fictional as well Sure it would be unhealthy for people to get the idea that porn is very realistic but at the same time it would also be a bad idea to think that killing people you don’t like is typically a reasonable solution to life’s problems similar to the way things are portrayed in many PG-rated movies, TV shows, and video games. If we were to ban all entertainment media that presents a warped distortion of real life then there really wouldn’t be much of anything left. The fact that it’s not real is half the point in my opinion (just like the WWE) and one of the main reasons that I think the Church is making way too much of an issue out of porn because it is simply entertainment and fantasy with almost nothing to do with real life. To me, this much hysteria and self-righteous indignation about other people looking at artificial images of complete strangers makes no sense whatsoever.
As always my opinion on the matter is that it seems like it is all too easy for women to condemn men (or teenage boys) for looking at porn as if it’s one of the most despicable things they could possibly do when from my point of view it looks like most women simply do not understand the level of interest in this kind of visual stimulus that is very typical for men. In other words, some men can’t really help it that they are this way because it is simply a built-in aspect of their nature. Sure they can try to fight it and suppress this tendency if they really want to for whatever reason but to pretend that this zero tolerance policy should be some kind of absolute and universal expectation for everyone and that any deviation from this supposed ideal is inherently abnormal is nothing less than a complete denial of reality that will inevitably set many people up for unnecessary disappointment.
Men=Visual and Women=Relationship .. or however people categorize the sexes still doesn’t mean that an individual does not have a choice in what they act on or look at. I love compliments from men. I love men. I’d enjoy flirtatious relationships with men. That doesn’t mean that it is right or that it wouldn’t bother or hurt my spouse. We can’t control what other people do, or watch or think, including our spouse. All we can do is express our own opinions and feelings on the subject. I’m a woman and it is difficult for me not to get sucked into watching porn .. or wanting to get fake boobs. 
You are right.It isn’t realistic, just like action or thriller movies. Sometimes I don’t mind the whole idea. Sometimes I do. It is a product of our culture …. The same culture we live in that thinks boobs are for the pleasure of men .. and not to feed babies. Scary. Some women in Africa were told how American men react towards a woman’s breasts – They laughed .. hysterically. I still stick with M – Healthy. Porn – Doesn’t do a whole lot of good for an individual or future generations as a whole but nevertheless is an option for those that decide to use it. I wanted to add that I don’t believe Porn should be illegal .. or that ultimatums should be made surrounding it – People should have the choice. All choices have baggage no matter how small.
I liked LaLaLove’s first comment. I was going to say that sometimes MB-ing may be helpful, but that I don’t think fantasizing is helpful. MB-ing reduces want; fantasizing increases it. MB-ing may make life happier; fantasizing and pornography, mmm, don’t.
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