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HiJolly wrote:
But Katzpur….
The Church of the Lamb of God is much larger than .2% of the worlds population… It’s still not a majority, but I don’t think things are as bleak as you seem to suggest.
You don’t have to keep the erroneous opinions of the majority of the membership of the Church as your own.
HiJolly
I think C.S. Lewis captures beautifully what I see as the Church of the Lamb in the finale of his Narnia books “The Last Battle”. A character named Emeth, a good and decent man, passes through to Aslan’s country and expects to face retribution for worshipping the wrong god. Instead, Aslan welcomes Emeth and explains that all good deeds are in service of Aslan as only good deeds can be, regardless of whose name they are offered in. All evil is done in service of Tash (the false god – Satan) even if they were done in Aslan’s name. If a man is loyal or true, if he is honest and does good, all is accounted as being in the service of Aslan.
There are many serving the right God in the wrong god’s name and sadly many serving the wrong god in the right God’s name. Thus many will say “Lord, Lord…” but still find themselves in need of purification before they can be received into His kingdom.
I’m glad that pure Mormonism teaches that salvation and exaltation have NOTHING to do with denominational affiliation at the most fundamental level. I know there are many members who wouldn’t understand that statment as worded so succinctly, but, when all is said and done, it simply isn’t a determining factor within our theology. If I took great care to phrase it differently and with a great deal more detail, I don’t know of a single active member who would disagree with me – but I personally prefer the succinct statement, since I wish all members understood it in its succinct form.
I wish so too, Ray. And I agree with you on salvation & exaltation. I really would like to have a ‘like’ button available…
HiJolly
Old-Timer wrote:I’m glad that pure Mormonism teaches that salvation and exaltation have NOTHING to do with denominational affiliation at the most fundamental level.
I know there are many members who wouldn’t understand that statement as worded so succinctly, but, when all is said and done, it simply isn’t a determining factor within our theology. If I took great care to phrase it differently and with a great deal more detail, I don’t know of a single active member who would disagree with me – but I personally prefer the succinct statement, since I wish all members understood it in its succinct form.
I’m sorry to have to do this Ray, but I would appreciate the different phrasing and additional detail. I believe that a common assumption in the church is that people are granted opportunities to convert to Mormonism (here or hereafter) and that exaltation (if not salvation) is at least partly contingent on accepting JS as a prophet. Thanks in advance for your efforts.
Old-Timer wrote:I’m glad that pure Mormonism teaches that salvation and exaltation have NOTHING to do with denominational affiliation at the most fundamental level.
I love succinct! (And I suck at it, so I appreciate the help your statement has provided me.)Quote:I know there are many members who wouldn’t understand that statment as worded so succinctly, but, when all is said and done, it simply isn’t a determining factor within our theology. If I took great care to phrase it differently and with a great deal more detail, I don’t know of a single active member who would disagree with me – but I personally prefer the succinct statement, since I wish all members understood it in its succinct form.
Of course more detail is needed to clarify the statement, but it is, in fact, the truth exactly as you have stated it. Unfortunately, you couldn’t say this to a non-member who had any knowledge whatsoever of Mormonism without being quickly backed into a corner to explain it further. What’s odd for me is that intellectually, I agree with you 100%. Emotionally, though, I keep seeing my own children as being outside of the parameters of at least exaltation because of the choices they’ve made. I wish I could apply the same objective criteria to them that I can to people whose eternal destiny really doesn’t matter to me.Roy wrote:Old-Timer wrote:I’m glad that pure Mormonism teaches that salvation and exaltation have NOTHING to do with denominational affiliation at the most fundamental level.
I know there are many members who wouldn’t understand that statement as worded so succinctly, but, when all is said and done, it simply isn’t a determining factor within our theology. If I took great care to phrase it differently and with a great deal more detail, I don’t know of a single active member who would disagree with me – but I personally prefer the succinct statement, since I wish all members understood it in its succinct form.
I’m sorry to have to do this Ray, but I would appreciate the different phrasing and additional detail. I believe that a common assumption in the church is that people are granted opportunities to convert to Mormonism (here or hereafter) and that exaltation (if not salvation) is at least partly contingent on accepting JS as a prophet. Thanks in advance for your efforts.
Yep. I agree with Ray salvation 100%, but I think you are correct too Roy. I don’t recognize the philosophy from the LDS church. I don’t know if our church has believed this kind of statement ever. Maybe in JS time, maybe at first, but since 1840? I don’t think so. The LDS church DO believe that everyone has to go through them (LDS church Priesthood) to reach the CK….hence all the temple work.
BUT – maybe on some of your planets the LDS church is different than it is here?
🙂 We know that is the case on many of these kind of issues. Perhaps Kat is right – you may need to do some clarification, because once again I’m not sure which LDS church you actually belong to Ray.🙂 I’ll try for a little more detail, and I’m going to write it as if I was presenting it to the most conservative, traditional members in the Church. There is much more I could say if I were conducting a 30-minute lesson or training, but an abbreviated version would be something like: 1) As in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Therefore, the Atonement pays for physical death for ALL who ever have lived – no matter what religion they believed in this life and what denomination they attended, if any. This covers atheists and agnostics, as well. “All” means all. Period.
Therefore, all are saved from physical death, and all except the Sons of Perdition are redeemed from spiritual death (“Hell” – endless life in the kingdom of Lucifer).2) This means that all who ever have lived obtain a reward for having lived here on Earth, even those who end up as Sons of Perdition. Everyone except the SofP inherit a degree of God’s glory in a divine kingdom.
3) We believe that those who die without having had a chance to hear the Gospel will have that opportunity at some point in their eternal existence.
Therefore, even if someone dies without having accepted the Gospel in any obvious way, they can be exalted – if they lived the best they could according to the dictates of their own conscience.Furthermore, there simply is no way to look inside a person’s heart and know if that person truly had an opportunity to understand the Gospel fully – which is highlighted by the next point. 4) All modern prophets have said that there will be those who are not LDS in this life who will end up in all the kingdoms of glory, and all modern prophets also have said that there are those who are baptized, ACTIVE members of the LDS Church in this life who also will end up in all the kingdoms of glory – since
where we end up essentially is a result of who we become (what glory we can abide when all is said and done), not who we appear to be to others. Iow, all modern prophets have said that baptism and confirmation alone are no guarantee of exaltation – and, they also have said that even active attendance won’t cut it if it’s not accompanied by a spiritual conversion. 5) Ultimately, God is the judge of all, since we just don’t understand anyone well enough to make final judgments of them.
This means that we really don’t know who has had an opportunity to understand the Gospel fully and who hasn’t.We often think we do, but we just don’t know so many things about others that we can’t be their judge. Only God can see into each soul and know the right reward for them. That is important to understand if we really do accept the idea that God is the Judge and that we simply can’t make that determination fully and with perfect clarity. 6) So, Buddhists, evangelicals, Muslims, Catholics, atheists, agnostics, Mormons, Baptists, wiccans, and just about any other type of person, including inactive LDS, can be exalted –
as long as they lived the best they could according to the dictates of their own conscience (including doing the best they could to repent to the best of their understanding and ability).That’s God’s call as the Eternal Judge, not ours as fallen (wo)man – since he can see performance compared to potential, while all we can see is performance (and, really, only public performance, in many cases).We might make value judgments based on our limited understanding of the full picture, but we are commanded not to do so (in too many scriptural passages to begin to list here) – because we are flat-out wrong in too many cases. Postscript:
If someone brings up the idea that all will need to be baptized into the Church, be endowed, sealed in the temple, etc. to enter the Celestial Kingdom, that can open a new line of discussion – but the best, most concise way to answer that argument is to point out that
such ordinance work says NOTHING about religious or denominational affiliation in THIS life– which is the central point of my original statement. Ray wrote:I’m glad that pure Mormonism teaches that salvation and exaltation have NOTHING to do with denominational affiliation [in THIS life] at the most fundamental level.
I agree with this statment 100%. Thank you Ray for the clarification.
Personally, I don’t believe there will be “religious or denominational affiliation” after this life, so, to me, it’s a moot point after this life – but that would require a much longer discussion with those who take the temple ordinances as literal and church-continuing. I think that’s a silly idea (especially when you consider the actual ultimate end we preach), but to each their own.
Ray, I agree with everything you’ve said except this statement:
Old-Timer wrote:2) This means that all who ever have lived obtain a reward for having lived here on Earth, even those who end up as Sons of Perdition.
I would think that from the standpoint of a Son of Perdition, being resurrected would be more of a punishment than a reward. I can’t imagine how existing in Outer Darkness for eternity could possibly be construed as “a reward for having lived here on Earth.”I really did find it interesting to see how you explained your belief, though, because I would say that, with the exception of the one point I just mentioned, it is virtually identical to my own belief. I’m just not 100% convinced that Thomas S. Monson would explain it the way you did. Do you think he would?
And finally, why do you think I am so easily able to see it this way in terms of everyone on earth except for my own two kids!?!?
Ray, I agree with you 1000% percent. I absolutely agree with everything you said. BUT…….. I hate this, and it is a huge but …. I’m sorry my friend, but what you are saying IS NOT what our church teaches or believes today. It’s not. There is a reason that NOMs are attracted to universalism…because it rings true and they can’t find it in the LDS church today. What you have just described is Universalism, and it is sorely lacking in the LDS church today. Period. So this theology that you just talked about, this Pure Mormonism, is really great stuff and I believe it. It rings true to me. But I’m sorry friend, it does not exist in our church today. MAYBE in your ward it does, but that is it. It doesn’t exist anymore outside of your world. If I am wrong, than show me ANY kind of witness from a general conference talk (scripture) that would back up your pure mormonism ideal that you just described. if I am wrong – than Heber or Orson – tell me so… does it exist in your worlds?
Please be right Ray — Please show me ANY kind of Mormon Doctrine (GC talk) from the last 30 years that supports this kind of theology.
Ray – you are the ULTIMATE idealists….. That is a compliment.
Old-Timer wrote:Personally, I don’t believe there will be “religious or denominational affiliation” after this life, so, to me, it’s a moot point after this life – but that would require a much longer discussion with those who take the temple ordinances as literal and church-continuing.
I think that’s a silly idea (especially when you consider the actual ultimate end we preach), but to each their own.
Absolutely Ray — but you are an anomaly in the church. You get it. That is not case for so many. Most active mormons are unable to see past the cultural traditional commandments and theology to understand their own doctrine.
I think perhaps god sees religions as we might see our children picking out a hobby. We want our kids to have something to keep them busy so they stay out of trouble, to teach them discipline or teamwork, and to grow and broaden their thoughts and knowledge. If we have one child choose soccer and another piano, we would encourage both equally. So, likewise, if a mormon and a buddhist both receive a spiritual witness, that is just god saying, “sure that would be fine if that is what you want”. We take it to mean that our religion is the only one that god approves of, but really he is just saying that one should work fine for you. I imagine nothing troubles our god more than seeing his children fight over which is the “only true religion.” The problem with testimonies is that many forget that god is merely reveling to the individual what is right for them. As an aside, that is why I have some issue with some scripture. We interpret personal revelation and advice as universal advice.
I think that is brilliantly stated Brown. Now if only I would hear something like that at GC. Have we ever heard that that message in GC in our lifetime? Will we ever hear that message in our lifetime?
I don’t think we will hear that exact message preached in GC – at least not in those words, and I really can’t blame the apostles for not teaching it in that way. There’s a really fine line between the ideal Gospel foundation I just explained and a message that tells everyone to do whatever they want, since God won’t hold them to anything they don’t understand. I think the global Church leadership actually does a decent job (not perfect by any stretch, and not excellent in a lot of cases, and not even good in some cases – but generally decent) walking that line (speaking generally and certainly not about all talks and statements) – ironically by stressing that this life isn’t the only chance people have (that they also have the there and then), while also stressing that those who are aware of / believe in the type of chance we teach need to try to live and grow the best they can in the here and now. How do you balance the ideal that is embodied within our temple theology (which I love) without completely gutting the need to value and emphasize our mortal accountability and growth theology (which I also love) – especially with a group that is SO diverse in personality, understanding, maturity, intelligence, paradigm, religious upbringing, etc? I’m not talking about even myself and a Sacrament Meeting talk. That would be a fiasco, imo. Magnify that to a General Conference talk, and we might be talking a nucleur reaction. It’s really, really difficult to do in ANY group setting (even here, with our time and space constraints) – but my main point was:
I don’t know if I know any active members who would disagree with me if I had a chance to sit down with them and lay all of this out in a careful, comprehensive way that wasn’t structured in such a way that would blow their mental gaskets. Obviously, the inactive or heteroprax members would be the most likely sticking point for most orthodox members (since they are the easiest ones to judge as having had their chance), but even there I think every active member I know would grant the theoretical possibility of those members getting into the Celestial Kingdom IF I had time for a comprehensive conversation about our inability to know exactly why people do exactly what they do – if I was able to have a discussion one-on-one, for example, where the other person didn’t feel a need to make sure others didn’t misunderstand. I could use specific examples of people I’ve known over the years and some of the issues of which I was totally unaware for a time, and, extrapolating that to others who might look at them and judge them . . . I’m confident they would grant the theoretical possibility, at least. Iow, I’m confident that they would agree that the Gospel allows that possibility – and that’s really all for which I can hope, since it’s all I am confident saying myself.
I can’t say that all will be saved and exalted, but I can say that the Gospel teaches all will be judged righteously, mercifully and with an understanding I don’t possess – that if there is something about some people that keeps them from really “getting it” in this life, that God will know about it and not hold it against them. Every active member I know would agree with that, I believe, as well.
Remember, I’m talking about a chance for an intimate conversation with an individual, not a talk to a large group of people. There are some things that just can’t be said in a group setting adequately, and I’m not certain this conversation can happen properly in a group setting, since it is really hard to anticipate and respond to each person’s questions and concerns in a traditional group setting. A forum like this is VERY different than a church meeting – and it’s important not to try to hold those meetings to the standards that work here.
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