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That was awesome, Ray. HiJolly
Yes Ray, awesome — and profound. Cwald, if in the meeting you find yourself in a corner and don’t want the destruction of a battle – lean on the reality that “I don’t have a perfect understanding.”
“I’m searching through things.” “I’m struggling with some things.” Struggle is a good sign, it means you haven’t given up.
“I don’t understand how…” is always a better start than “I don’t agree with…”
Best wishes.
Orson wrote:Yes Ray, awesome — and profound.
Cwald, if in the meeting you find yourself in a corner and don’t want the destruction of a battle – lean on the reality that “I don’t have a perfect understanding.”
“I’m searching through things.” “I’m struggling with some things.” Struggle is a good sign, it means you haven’t given up.
“I don’t understand how…” is always a better start than “I don’t agree with…”
I agree Ray’s post was definitely food for thought, but just because we are struggling doesn’t mean we are on the right path.
I agree, Brown – but, paradoxically :ugeek: , given our stated objective, if we aren’t struggling in some way, I’m pretty sure we aren’t on the right path (or, if we are, we’re just sitting on it taking a rest – which isn’t a bad thing, in and of itself, but we have to get back up and struggle again at some point).Ray, I reread your posts in this thread today during church. I liked your posts. I think it has some wisdom to it. Old-Timer wrote:I agree, Brown – but, paradoxically
:ugeek: , given our stated objective, if we aren’t struggling in some way, I’m pretty sure we aren’t on the right path (or, if we are, we’re just sitting on it taking a rest – which isn’t a bad thing, in and of itself, but we have to get back up and struggle again at some point).
It is interesting Ray that you can basically be saying the same thing as Brown, yet be putting a different twist on it that presents it in a new light. Thanks for sharing. I needed that!I will say none of this makes it any less confusing. Sometimes you walk 20 miles from where you started only to be 20 miles farther from your goal. But of course staying home isn’t going to get you anywhere. Old-Timer wrote:I’ll try for a little more detail, and I’m going to write it as if I was presenting it to the most conservative, traditional members in the Church. There is much more I could say if I were conducting a 30-minute lesson or training, but an abbreviated version would be something like:
1) As in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Therefore, the Atonement pays for physical death for ALL who ever have lived – no matter what religion they believed in this life and what denomination they attended, if any. This covers atheists and agnostics, as well. “All” means all. Period.
Therefore, all are saved from physical death, and all except the Sons of Perdition are redeemed from spiritual death (“Hell” – endless life in the kingdom of Lucifer).2) This means that all who ever have lived obtain a reward for having lived here on Earth, even those who end up as Sons of Perdition. Everyone except the SofP inherit a degree of God’s glory in a divine kingdom.
3) We believe that those who die without having had a chance to hear the Gospel will have that opportunity at some point in their eternal existence.
Therefore, even if someone dies without having accepted the Gospel in any obvious way, they can be exalted – if they lived the best they could according to the dictates of their own conscience.Furthermore, there simply is no way to look inside a person’s heart and know if that person truly had an opportunity to understand the Gospel fully – which is highlighted by the next point. 4) All modern prophets have said that there will be those who are not LDS in this life who will end up in all the kingdoms of glory, and all modern prophets also have said that there are those who are baptized, ACTIVE members of the LDS Church in this life who also will end up in all the kingdoms of glory – since
where we end up essentially is a result of who we become (what glory we can abide when all is said and done), not who we appear to be to others. Iow, all modern prophets have said that baptism and confirmation alone are no guarantee of exaltation – and, they also have said that even active attendance won’t cut it if it’s not accompanied by a spiritual conversion. 5) Ultimately, God is the judge of all, since we just don’t understand anyone well enough to make final judgments of them.
This means that we really don’t know who has had an opportunity to understand the Gospel fully and who hasn’t.We often think we do, but we just don’t know so many things about others that we can’t be their judge. Only God can see into each soul and know the right reward for them. That is important to understand if we really do accept the idea that God is the Judge and that we simply can’t make that determination fully and with perfect clarity. 6) So, Buddhists, evangelicals, Muslims, Catholics, atheists, agnostics, Mormons, Baptists, wiccans, and just about any other type of person, including inactive LDS, can be exalted –
as long as they lived the best they could according to the dictates of their own conscience (including doing the best they could to repent to the best of their understanding and ability).That’s God’s call as the Eternal Judge, not ours as fallen (wo)man – since he can see performance compared to potential, while all we can see is performance (and, really, only public performance, in many cases).We might make value judgments based on our limited understanding of the full picture, but we are commanded not to do so (in too many scriptural passages to begin to list here) – because we are flat-out wrong in too many cases. Postscript:
If someone brings up the idea that all will need to be baptized into the Church, be endowed, sealed in the temple, etc. to enter the Celestial Kingdom, that can open a new line of discussion – but the best, most concise way to answer that argument is to point out that
such ordinance work says NOTHING about religious or denominational affiliation in THIS life– which is the central point of my original statement. Ray, may I have your permission to quote this on another site?
Yes. Everything I write here is fine to be quoted, with or without attribution. (My name is fine, if appropriate for the forum; “a friend” is fine, if that is most appropriate for the forum.) I don’t hide who I am in any way in all that I write throughout the Bloggernacle, so I am fine with anything I write being quoted elsewhere – with a simple request to remove references to other individuals if their names or pseudonyms appear in what I write and this site name if there is any concern about extremists crashing our party. Just use discretion. That’s my root request.
Old-Timer wrote:Yes. Everything I write here is fine to be quoted, with or without attribution. (My name is fine, if appropriate for the forum; “a friend” is fine, if that is most appropriate for the forum.) I don’t hide who I am in any way in all that I write throughout the Bloggernacle, so I am fine with anything I write being quoted elsewhere – with a simple request to remove references to other individuals if their names or pseudonyms appear in what I write and this site name if there is any concern about extremists crashing our party.
Just use discretion. That’s my root request.
Thank you so much. I wanted to explain my feelings about Mormonism being “the true Church” and yet why I don’t feel a pressing need to convert the world or a fear for the eternal destiny of the souls of those who die without becoming Mormons. You just said it so much better than I could, so thank you.
Quote:by cwald » 2011 May 07, 00:44
Ray, I agree with you 1000% percent. I absolutely agree with everything you said.
BUT…….. I hate this, and it is a huge but …. I’m sorry my friend, but what you are saying IS NOT what our church teaches or believes today. It’s not. There is a reason that NOMs are attracted to universalism…because it rings true and they can’t find it in the LDS church today. What you have just described is Universalism, and it is sorely lacking in the LDS church today. Period. So this theology that you just talked about,
this Pure Mormonism, is really great stuff and I believe it. It rings true to me. But I’m sorry friend, it does not exist in our church today.MAYBE in your ward it does, but that is it. It doesn’t exist anymore outside of your world. If I am wrong, than show me ANY kind of witness from a general conference talk (scripture) that would back up your pure mormonism ideal that you just described. if I am wrong – than Heber or Orson – tell me so… does it exist in your worlds? Please be right Ray — Please show me ANY kind of Mormon Doctrine (GC talk) from the last 30 years that supports this kind of theology.
I live in a very conservative ward, and teach some very TBM High Priests. On more than one occasion have discussed the universalism of Mormonism. I start by quoting
Quote:D&C 130:20-21 “There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.”
This law applies to everyone. Whoever obeys the laws of God will be blessed whether Mormon, Catholic, Baptist, Muslim, Buddhist, or atheist. They will be blessed according to their obedience to the truths they know and the service they provide their fellow men.
I believe that Mother Theressa, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Mahatma Gandhi, and many other noble people lack only some temple work to be exalted in the hereafter. Their exaltation will be complete with a bit of celestial clerical work, while many of us who are members of the Church, struggle with spiritual meritocracy will have much more to learn before we can be exalted.”
No one has challenged my statement or even squirmed uncomfortably in their seats.
Let me look at this in a more reverse fashion. Let’s say you have someone who entered into all the temple covenants, and even had spiritual experience which, for a time, he believed indicated Mormonism was “true”. But then, as a result of his involvement became disillusioned with Mormonism. They retained their membership, but for the rest of their life, dedicated themselves to other causes without attending the Church or Temple right up to an including the day of their death. And all this without besmirching the Church to others.
After thier disaffection, they lived an exemplary life in the service of others, but not in the Church. They obeyed the basic commandments of clean living and sacrifice we make in the temple their entire life — but directed their energies to other efforts which benefit mankind after their dissafection. And in the process became more charitable and Christlike than even the most prolific temple recommend holder. Take this as known and a fact for the purpose of this analysis.
Does your assessment of the universalism of Mormonism indicate there is a high, high degree of glory awaiting this person?
Yes. The goal is to become Christlike / godly – and if that happens, who really cares about how it happened? (That’s a rhetorical question; I know plenty of people care about how it happens.) That’s the foundation of our vicarious temple work and the logical conclusion of the more recent emphasis on “becoming” over “doing”. It’s really hard to divorce that from a strict adherence to communal rules, but it’s there is big, fat, bold lettering in our theology.
Having said that, it’s also possible for MANY (including me) to work toward that goal within the LDS Church – and, I would argue, actually easier than in many, if not most or all, other churches – simply because it IS taught as the ideal. Finding the proper balance within the paradoxes and competing human outlooks is critical, but at least the ideal really is taught.
But I’m having trouble with something you said in the other thread Ray (I couldn’t find the thread, so I hope I can post it here)….you say the ordinances aren’t as significant as we might think (still important, but not as significant) because everyone gets them eventually given vicarious temple work. But this isn’t true is it? You have to ACCEPT these ordinances. There will undoubtedly be people who don’t commit.
So, there will always be this suiting up for the organizational shoulds or you miss the entry fee….if anyone remembers where that thread is I’m happy to post this there…
I’ve mentioned it in more than one thread, SD – but this one actually is where I fleshed it out the most. (Scroll up the page a bit, where Katzpur quotes what I wrote earlier.) Sure, we say everyone will have to accept the ordinances – but all that really means is that the ordinances have been done, so they are irrelevant to everyone who is in a “condition” to understand and accept their importance. We also teach that anyone who lives diligently according to the dictates of their own conscience will be in that necessary “condition” – they will have become someone who can understand and accept.
It’s just much, much harder to see someone whom we think should “get it” now and doesn’t appear to “get it” now and believe that they will “get it” after this life ends – but that’s what the logical extension of our theology says.
Think about it: Who cause YOU the most frustration? I would bet it’s those whom you know the best whom you think don’t understand you and how you think and how you view the Gospel and religion and commitment and family. Why should it be any different for them with regard to you? You’ve probably thought, “Why can’t they see this?” – while they are thinking the exact same thing about you.
What I’m saying is that, in the end, “the work” is going to be done for everyone – so those of us who recognize that can stop worrying about it and just focus on “becoming” (which is the heart of “repenting”, when it’s focused strictly on “changing” – its core definition).
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