The meaning of testimony

[Anonymous]

So, are you saying a person can be stone-cold their entire life after partaking all ordinances, yet become Christlike through extra-Church involvement, and then receive celestial glory, not having paid a dime of official tithing (but paid unofficial tithing say, to a different charitable organization) since their disaffection?

And question#2

Let’s say this person never comes around in this life, or the next, but is exemplary in all other aspects of his character at resurrection and final judgment – do you think this person can be exhalted?

Perhaps I’m not getting what you said above, but I didn’t get that clarifying, zinging clarity after I read it twice, so I ask.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Let’s say this person never comes around in this life, or the next, but is exemplary in all other aspects of his character at resurrection and final judgment – do you think this person can be exalted?

For my part, I’ve had troubles reconciling the importance of becoming with the atonement and forgiveness and acceptance of where you are at this moment. The solution (for me anyway) was the removal of the time limitation. If the time limitation were to be removed then God could simultaneously accept and forgive you where you currently stand while also patiently guiding you into your eventual self for as long as it takes. So back to your question, this person will eventually “come around” in the sense of reaching their ultimate potential, growing as far as they can grow, and becoming a perfect (whole) self. “Coming around” in the sense of swearing allegiance or loyalty to the LDS church seems unimportant in the big picture. Mileage may vary.

[Anonymous]

What Roy said.

I see “eternity” as, literally, extending for time and ALL eternity – and that we won’t be “placed into a kingdom with boundaries” until we’re done becoming – or, more precisely, reached a point of becoming where any new development is a result of creating things outside ourselves. We’re done with the internal becoming and are ready to move on to external creating. We’re ready to step fully into an eternal round.

With that in mind, I’m not hung up at all on a timeline.

Otoh, the LDS Church simply MUST preach a timeline. It MUST talk in terms of the importance of this life – since it’s all we have right now, and since it’s important to be moving forward and “becoming” more complete, whole and fully developed. Anything except that is stagnation and regression, and, while those things can be reversed, we can’t preach it in such a way that we encourage it. We can make theological and doctrinal allowance for both “negative conditions” (stagnation and regression), and we do exactly that with grace / forgiveness, but we also MUST stress the importance of progressive change, and we do that with repentance. Either one is “dead, being alone” – but when you combine the two (and mix in patience and humility), you get the mindset that says:

Quote:

I will do what I can to live according to the dictates of my conscience and best understanding, and I will hope in the Lord to provide what I can’t see on my own – according to His timetable and not my own.

So, yes, as long as someone really is doing the best she can to live what they believe to be truth and right, I believe they will become exalted – and the key to me is “become” instead of “be made”. I believe God exalts his chlidren more through his patience and long-suffering than by any direct action on his part.

Read 1 Corinthians 13 with that in mind – looking at it as a description of God and his interaction with us. It might be an interesting experience.

[Anonymous]

Wow!!! That’s liberating doctrine…it helps me understand why you were able to look at the Church as a partnership — and if the partnership isn’t working anymore…I will let you finish the sentence in your own mind.

I do think this is supported with one scripture in the D&C which says Endless Punishment is not Eternal Punishment, but that is called such to stir up the hearts of the children of men. Meaning, it’s there to trigger motivation, not necessarily to preach an endless state of suffering if you screw up now.

But then, we have BoM scriptures which talk about now is the time of our repentence, that there will come a time when no labor can be performed (that night of darkness) that people think we can eat, drink and be merry,and with a few stripes beaten on us, will be eventually saved in the Kingdom of good.

1. How do you respond to this plethora of scriptures?

2. How about this — what do you say about the person who thinks…well, I can see what is important to me now in this life, so after decades of sacrifice and giving and denying my financial needs, I’m going to look after “Number one” — myself for a while, and enjoy life. Experience those worldly things I have denied myself, and reach my own conclusions about whether they make me happy….in the next life, when these things may not be available or even important anymore, I will work on my character then. (I am not considering this, by the way…this is a theoretical question).

How would you respond to this?

3. If we have an unofficial eternal timeline to get there — will everyone get saved? Meaning, with eternity at our disposal, will everyone eventually figure out what it means to be a “good person” and eventually be saved? And if so, doesn’t this run counter to the idea of assignment to kingdoms etecetera?

[Author]

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