The middle way revisited

[Anonymous]

So the question remains: How does one be supported to find their own way?

Is it at church? Outside of church? John gave up trying to prescribe something that helps all. What do you all think?

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

So the question remains: How does one be supported to find their own way?

Is it at church? Outside of church? John gave up trying to prescribe something that helps all. What do you all think?

Not in the church. We were at my wife’s cousin’s house for a dinner and I was playing with his IPad. I had Staylds open when he came by and asked what it was. He’s our former stake president and really a great guy but when I tried to explain what the site was about he was not pleased. I think you’re on your own with sites like this or something like sunstone to put you in contact with people that are safe to talk to. At church though he just have to stay below the radar. One of my unpleasant memories was a HP group meeting when I spoke up about something and things got real bad in a hurry. It’s one of the reasons I like being a clerk. You can be useful, don’t have to be religious and have a place to hide out.

[Anonymous]

GBSmith wrote:

Heber13 wrote:

So the question remains: How does one be supported to find their own way?

Is it at church? Outside of church? John gave up trying to prescribe something that helps all. What do you all think?

It is clear that one path will not help all. It depends on so many factors. As SD pointed out we all have different reasons for “Staying”. We all have very different ideas from the nature of God to the WoW. It will depend on how differently you see the world from the basic tenants of the Church. The closer you are the easier it it to stay. It also depends on how much value you find in the Church. The more value you find in the Church the easier it is to stay.

I don’t think many people would feel the need for a forum like StayLDS or NOM or any of the facebook groups if they felt like they were supported at church. Staying in the Church can work for some but not all.

I am a little confused about the fear there seems to be with using the term “middle way”. I have always understood it to mean a belief somewhere between complete literal orthodoxy and leaving the Church. I have never heard anyone try and implement one “middle way” or “the middle way”. Is the fear because of Cwald and the idea that the “middle way” is some kind of movement or organization? There are a lot of Mormons who are struggling with their faith and trying to reconcile beliefs. We would not be here if the Church was a safe place to deal with these issues.

We are all here because we are not finding the support we need at Church or in our home. There may be a few that are here because they feel like they can help but this is a support forum.

The original question was does finding your own personal path, within the church, work long term? It sounds like GBSmith has had a really crappy experience with his family and to not face the question because we are uncomfortable with the wording is not helpful to GBSmith nor is it very supportive.

GBSmith- I am sorry that you had to deal with family like that. I have had similar experiences and it really SUCKS. I wish the collect Church, leadership and members, were more open to questions. From my experiences you are correct it is difficult to find support within the Church when you question. WE all have to make a conscience decision, is staying worth it? If it is you can stay forever. If not maybe it is best to cut ties and move on.

I have not been at StayLDS long nor do I post often but the question of how long can I do this has been pressing me for sometime now. I have used this board for help and support when I have needed it and to see that some questions are not safe to ask makes me question how helpful this board can be.

I believe Staying involved within the Church CAN work but you have to want it to work and you have to find value in the Church.

[Anonymous]

GBSmith wrote:

I had Staylds open when he came by and asked what it was. He’s our former stake president and really a great guy but when I tried to explain what the site was about he was not pleased.

This has been my experience so far as well, despite the top of the Web page says “STAY LDS”.

My kind brother, however, took some time to actually read through things posted, and while not agreeing with the angle of some comments shared here, he was less concerned about me when he took time to learn more about it.

behappy wrote:

I am a little confused about the fear there seems to be with using the term “middle way”. I have always understood it to mean a belief somewhere between complete literal orthodoxy and leaving the Church. I have never heard anyone try and implement one “middle way” or “the middle way”. Is the fear because of Cwald and the idea that the “middle way” is some kind of movement or organization?

I shared the confusion, behappy, but I think recent events were more alarming to a specific region of the church because there are some groups using the term specifically, and they are forming physical gatherings and intentions of further interactions, more closely looking like a movement. Prior to these specific events, I honestly don’t think it has been on anyone’s radar.

[Anonymous]

behappy wrote:

Ultimately, it comes down to do you like the product the church is selling? If you do great who cares how it was made. If you don’t like the product, well no sense it choking it down every week.

Yup. I agree that when you boil it all down to the barest essence of the question of staying or leaving, this is the most fundamental question. Do you like being Mormon? Do you find it more inspiring than draining? Does it work for you?

If being Mormon is profitable, then stay.

If being Mormon is a loss, then leave. (and best wishes to you in your journey, you are still my sister or brother in the great universe of humanity)

Obviously, our site is focused more narrowly on HOW to stay. If you want to try and make it work, come join other people and talk about successful and unsuccessful adaption experiences, ideas, theories, or just plain chew the fat with others who actually understand what you are going through.

[Anonymous]

behappy wrote:

I can work towards my own enlightenment and follow the spirit in all that I do. But what happens when my spirit tells me that beer is okay or that I don’t like the Churches teaching on several topics? Then what? Do I continue to try and force a square peg in a round hole?

Yes. That is exactly what someone has to do. It applies to being in a church (any religion), being married, a career, having friends … actually ANY human relationship. Nobody else on the planet thinks, acts or wants the same exact things all the time. The internal dissonance IMO stems from desire to be validated by others — and the more that validate us, the better and bigger the rush. Like others mentioned, Buddhism comes to mind again. It’s a religion all about letting go of those emotional attachments. They’ve managed a “middle way” (or personal way) for thousands of years. So yes, it is possible.

I get irritated with my wife. We disagree on things sometimes. I stay married to her. I like being married to her MORE than I like getting divorced. We’ve been married for 20 years. It’s not all perfect and fireworks, but I love her and our children. I stay.

There are people at my work that I don’t agree with sometimes. In fact, I have had bosses that I thought made poor decisions. Sometimes they caused me harm. I like getting a paycheck MORE than I like being unemployed. I stay in a job as long as the benefits outweigh the costs, and as long as the benefits are greater than the costs of other employment options. So I don’t stand up in every single managers meeting and tell everyone else they are wrong. I don’t tell my boss he/she is an idiot when they make dumb decisions. Sometimes I do. Yup … sometimes I just shut up and say nothing. Sound familiar yet?

I love John D. and consider him a brother. I work on all kinds of projects with him. But guess what? I disagree with him on some issues too. On this issue, I disagree. I love helping people, but I am a hardcore pragmatist. That is my personality. I feel like idealism has failed me so many times, I finally decided to lay down that heavy cross and walk a lighter path.

I stay in the Church. I have no plans of leaving. I like staying MORE than I like leaving. It profits me, so I stay. But I also have few (if any) expectations that GA’s are going to dedicate talks every conference session to the Brian Johnston brand of Mormonism. That’s fine. I already know how to live my life and be happy, religious and spiritual. I do it every day: my way.

[Anonymous]

Brian Johnston wrote:

I already know how to live my life and be happy, religious and spiritual. I do it every day: my way.

This whole response, Brian, is brilliant!

I would say that “attachment” is a really big key issue you mentioned. In some ways, I see letting go of “attachment” to authority and priesthood is where it can be a paradigm shift, or at least an interesting ground to prance about on. Completely letting go of attachment to the church authority is what apostates do. Complete attachment (holding fast to the Iron Rod unquestioningly) is the other extreme. The church can’t really teach you to become less attached to them, but in a subtle way, when I read general conference talks, I do see they teach exactly that. Self-reliance. Teach correct principles. Rely on personal revelation. Rely on the spirit. Follow the Liahona. Eternal progression. Personal conversion to Christ. Yet these are simultaneously balanced with things like the 14 Fundamentals to remember obedience and honoring authority, avoid dangers of straying out to the fringes, devotion and faith like Job.

These concepts are not surface concepts. I think the truth is found in the depths, where at some level, one can remain in the church, be completely honest to one’s conscience, be less attached to what others think, but completely obedient to the “weightier matters” because one wants to be, because there is value, because it is done out of love, and because it brings peace, not as the world giveth, but as the Lord giveth by having an eye single to His Glory. And you know what, even if no God exists in Heaven…these principles and practices that I choose to cling to from mormonism, still are worthwhile and fulfilling to my soul, if I can understand the right ones with the right level of balance in the middle way.

( I should have just stopped at … Brian, that was brilliant! 😳 )

[Anonymous]

To Heber’s question a few posts above — the support needs to come from outside the Church. Within the Church there is a kind of judgmentalism that doesn’t tolerate divergent thinking or expression of true concerns about the Church. So, with no affirmation, no toleration, there can be no progress. Further, inside the Church, people rely on shop-worn reasons and phrases that have often stopped being effective in the mind of the person whose faith is challenged.

Further, even if concerns WERE resolved within the Church, the damage to one’s reputation can cut off opportunities to serve in capacities they might want to in the future.

So, the support has to come from other divergent thinkers who have trodden the path or who, at least, are empathetic to the plight of the person in the faith or commitment crisis.

What can they do? Listen. Offer the best advice you can give when it’s wanted. Be supportive, be a cheerleader when things go right, and provide community. That for me is the environment in which healthy exploration and enlightenment can be achieved. Out of that environment may well come the Personal Way that helps the individual cope within Mormonism.

Also, give coaching when the individual has to face priesthood leaders and help them avoid landmines. As we’ve seen with some of our posters on the board, the reaction of priesthood leaders to doubhts or concerns can propel the person into deeper inactivity. The Church is a double-edged sword — a professed source of help but also the deliverer of discipline for apostasy, so the expression of doubt or contrarion views about Church governance or culture can cause priesthood leaders to jump to discipline which only alienates the person in crisis even further.

[Anonymous]

Brian, thanks for your comments. I really needed the hear this topic from that perspective.

I have “invested” so much of my life in the church, that I have come to believe that even though I may fantasize about what it would be like to leave the church, actually doing so would cause more hurt and pain. It is my hope that coming here to this site will help me to Stay… whether that be a middle way… personal way.. or being able to sift through misinterpretation between actual doctrinal and cultural confusion.

Oh, how I so wish my faith could be as it was when I was young. However, like John says in one of his articles once you have become aware of certain aspects of the church it is impossible to go back. That is where I find myself right know. And as others have also stated once you have “let the cat out of the bag” , it is impossible to put it back. I feel I must take great care in who I discuss this with. This makes me sad. I wish I could find validation from others in the church. (I should add, that even though, I was very honest about my lack of testimony, my Bishop and Stake President felt it was still appropriate for me to have a temple recommend so I could go with my daughter when she received her endowments to go on a mission)

I do not feel any connection with God. I am trying to work that out. I see others both in an out of the church that have that connection and I desire to regain it. So I am doing a little research on shame, and I am wondering if there is a connection between shame, cognitive dissonance, and not feeling connected with God.

[Anonymous]

MesaMom wrote:

Brian, thanks for your comments. I really needed the hear this topic from that perspective.

I have “invested” so much of my life in the church, that I have come to believe that even though I may fantasize about what it would be like to leave the church, actually doing so would cause more hurt and pain. It is my hope that coming here to this site will help me to Stay… whether that be a middle way… personal way.. or being able to sift through misinterpretation between actual doctrinal and cultural confusion.

Oh, how I so wish my faith could be as it was when I was young.

I agree with every shred of wording in this. I feel almost exactly the same way. It was pretty comfortable just to believe it all hook, line and sinker, and write off anything contrarion as from Satan. Way easy. This is harder.

Quote:

I do not feel any connection with God. I am trying to work that out. I see others both in an out of the church that have that connection and I desire to regain it. So I am doing a little research on shame, and I am wondering if there is a connection between shame, cognitive dissonance, and not feeling connected with God.

There may be — However, I’m starting to feel a connection with God again. I went away last week to a conference and spent a lot of time alone and prayed and reflected on how I felt close to God before I knew anything about the Church — and realized that one’s relationship with God can be independent of the Church, or, in the position of people like you and I, IN SPITE of the Church. He still cares about us as individuals. Just because you have problems with the Church doesn’t mean God no longer loves you. He still cares about the individual, and sees the whole landscape of my life. And from his perspective, this period of angst may well be temporary when you consider eternity is in his purview.

The hard part is what you said earlier though — that you have to shoulder these Church burdens alone in the Church after you step out of the traditional believer’s circle of beliefs. And to make matters worse, if you DO share your true feelings, it only makes it harder at Church because you end up shouldering them in the context of judgmentalism.

That’s why I am glad we can vent here and share, largely without condemnation.

[Anonymous]

Though it may be difficult for many to find the balance, I think there are some excellent examples of people out there who live the middle way and have achieved a high degree of enlightenment doing so. I went the the Mormon Stories conference and came away with the impression that Carol Lynn Pearson, for instance, is a shining example of this.

Korash

[Anonymous]

MesaMom wrote:

So I am doing a little research on shame, and I am wondering if there is a connection between shame, cognitive dissonance, and not feeling connected with God.

Yes, I think there is. I think the underlying theme is that of lack of peace in life, for whatever reason. It often leads to one “wrestling” with God, as the scriptures say, to find that peace.

SilentDawning wrote:

He still cares about us as individuals. Just because you have problems with the Church doesn’t mean God no longer loves you. He still cares about the individual, and sees the whole landscape of my life. And from his perspective, this period of angst may well be temporary when you consider eternity is in his purview.

Amen. Well said, SD.

[Anonymous]

I respect those who can make the “middle way” work and “stay.”

I empathize with those who are no longer able to use a “middle way” to stay, and leave, for whatever reason.

I hope the church in general will allow a middle way for those who want to stay.

It just didn’t workout for me.

[Anonymous]

I can respect that, cwald, and understand it from your perspective.

Perhaps it is not the right time right now for you. Perhaps it is not something that just either works or doesn’t (black and white thinking), but is more a tool in the toolbox that can be used sometimes by some people for certain things as an alternative to just not trying anything at all. It is A way to work through things, not THE way.

Just remember we’re here. Feel free to rejoin the conversation any time.

Best wishes to ya!

[Author]

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