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Picked this book up today… I think it does deserve its scary reputation. I’ll say more about it later…
Fwiw, Sam, that book has been mentioned in at least a half-dozen threads here – and the consensus is that, while its harshness might be necessary for hardcore addicts, it’s a good book to ignore as a regular member. Like “Mormon Doctrine”, it carries too much baggage to be something I would recommend to anyone – unless, again, the person desperately needed a hard slap to wake him up. As has been mentioned by others, even Pres. Kimball himself mentioned to his son his regret over how many members interpreted and internalized the message he was trying to teach in ways that he didn’t mean to convey.
In that light, let’s all be very careful in this thread not to turn it into a place to dump on Pres. Kimball in any way – or even just a dumping ground on the book itself. If we are going to tackle this book head-on (which I have no problem with us doing), let’s keep it focused on two things, please:
1) any messages from it that really do apply to all of us – like the ultimate conclusion that practically all really are covered by the grace of God in the end;
2) ways to set aside the harsher parts and reconstruct a different paradigm that makes more sense and applies more to us as “average sinners”.
I’m wondering if Kimball wrote the book to try and scare people back into morality. There was a big moral panic in that period, partly justified, that traditional norms and structures such as marriage etc were falling it apart. Some of the wording is pretty strong, and it seems to imply stuff like most LDS parents would rather their children were dead than petted or did the m word.
I have to say reading it though, it’s probably not really the book for me right now, although I’ll give it a go. It is the first time I’ve really looked at the book.
Check out the comments here –
http://ironrod.wordpress.com/2006/10/05/a-controversial-book-that-should-not-be-controversial/ My sense when I read it was that he was enumerating the ways we sin so that we’d be left without excuse. There didn’t seem to be much about forgiveness just the last 2 chapters or so. Maybe it was just me but the feeling I had in reading it was that I was a bad person. I think if you don’t have a firm testimony of the Saviour and the atonement, it’s best not to read it. It’s been 33 years since I read it just before I left on my mission. Honestly I can not remember a thing about it. Read this back in the 80s, and I don’t remember much other than feeling extremely unworthy and that it would be nearly impossible to achieve forgiveness. Most faithful LDS prefer Robinson’s Believing Christ, which was written much later, and to Ray’s point, there was a specific need for this book at the time it was written. There was one part of the book that gave me sufficient pause to doubt its credibility – when the book referred to “the filthy dreamer of the night” as one who had committed a sin and therefore had demonstrated that prior repentance was a sham and insufficient for forgiveness. I could only assume that the book was referring to lucid dreaming because it’s the only dream state in which the dreamer is making choices and in control. Most dreaming is involuntary or at least to the extent that the superego is not available in our decision-making in dreams as it is in our waking life. So I assumed that there were some things that the author got a little wrong. That’s an attitude that has served me well as I listen to talks in GC, etc. I’m responsible to know for myself. If they don’t know what they are talking about in one way or another, I have to be able to discern that. I just don’t see a better atlernative. Old-Timer wrote:In that light, let’s all be very careful in this thread not to turn it into a place to dump on Pres. Kimball in any way – or even just a dumping ground on the book itself. If we are going to tackle this book head-on (which I have no problem with us doing), let’s keep it focused on two things, please:
1) any messages from it that really do apply to all of us – like the ultimate conclusion that practically all really are covered by the grace of God in the end;
2) ways to set aside the harsher parts and reconstruct a different paradigm that makes more sense and applies more to us as “average sinners”.
Pretty tough order for me, as I have nothing positive i can say about the book. I’ll just excuse myself from this thread with this quote from my bishop in 1985, “Read the book ONCE, and then never read it again. EVER!.” Pretty good advice, and I’ve followed it. The book is not on my shelf for my kids to read nor will it ever be, instead, I have put
The Continuous Atonementby Brad Wilcox. Great book, but that is a topic for another day. As I’ve said, I’ve not read right through it (read part of the first chapter, before falling to sleep last night), but have skimmed some parts… The stuff about sinning against the Holy Ghost was interesting, but somewhat scary. He seems to think anyone who sins who has the Holy Ghost in them is doing it.
I have purposely avoided reading the book because I heard it was pretty harsh. Harsh doesn’t begin to cover it. It has answered one question which I was always curious about, what exactly is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? But it’s also told me about a lot of “sins” I didn’t even know I was committing, or existed!!!
One thing in it I find disturbing is that it gives the impression that murderers can never be forgiven, and that the thief on the cross next to Jesus didn’t necessarily get into Heaven.
Seriously, Sam – this is one book I think we all can agree should not have been written as it was written. Sam, there are many books that I have started to read, and quit because I didn’t like them. If this book is bothering you, pick up something better. One of my favorite books was written by Larry King. It’s called “Powerful Prayers.” Larry interviews lots of politicians and celebrities, including atheists like Dr Kervorkian, devoutly religious like Jimmy Carter, and everything in between. Steve Young and JW Marriott are in there too. I highly recommend it; it’s funny at times, but has a very powerful message. We can all learn a lot from prayer, and I think you would find it a refreshing change from your current state of mind. (Larry is an admitted agnostic, so it’s interesting to hear his point of view on prayer.) Larry King’s wife is LDS isn’t she? Ray – I think you’re right, but I don’t like to dismiss stuff out of hand. There are some passages and anecdotes (what is it with Mormons and their anecdotes?!) which are quite good. Today, I read the section where he says (rightly in my view) that in unmarried pregnancies, the female gets saddled with the physical problem, and that a lot of parents of boys assume it’s always the girls’ fault, when the male is just as much to blame. Hooray, something to say that men might be just as much the problem in some cases.
He also had a great passage about where a wife forgives her husband’s infidelity, and says that he should forgive all her little foibles, because she has forgiven him for his major one, and that he should return the favor.
On another note, a missionary gave me 2 Nephi 4 v 16-end the other day, probably the most beautiful part of the BoM, which helped me appreciate the literary worth of the BoM, which I haven’t always seen. It cheered me up no end.
Larry King’s latest ex-wife is LDS. The man just can’t stay married. 🙄 He needs to hook up with Elizabeth Taylor and save the rest of the world the trouble.Yes, Larry has recently filed for divorce from his LDS wife Shawn. (I think he is a better writer than interviewer on CNN.)
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