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I find it somewhat hypocritical that the leaders preach eternal families, yet in reality the doctrine teaches very few families will make it intact to the CK. Most every family has some members that can not tow the line, hence they will be excluded from the plan of exaltation. There will be huge gaps in every family.
It is ironic that many non Mormon religious people have a sense they will be with their loved ones again. It is Mormons who teach they won’t.
I find it sad that many members live in anguish over the thought they are losing their children when they decide to not participate anymore.
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Maybe this is a case of Mormonism being ahead of its time for the 1800’s but has since lost significant ground and has not adapted soon enough. I have heard stories of early pioneer individuals that refused to join a church that would banish their never Christian ancestors to hell – and how relieved they were when the LDS church arrived on the scene.
Maybe times have changed. Most people today assume that if there is an afterlife you will get to spend it with loved ones.
Are you sure the “doctrine” “teaches” that? I’m not. The scriptures are pretty unclear. I think some (many) leaders and members teach that, I’m not at all sure Jesus Christ taught/teaches that. The church does teach the principle of “Eternal Progression”. It isn’t always clear what it is or means. It is unique to our faith, I believe. To me it means that in eternity, we learn at our own pace. And we have the potential to arrive at the same place on different time tables.
Personally, I am a very slow learner. I always have been.
Again I’d ask what force would exist in heaven to keep two people that wanted to be together apart from each other. Maybe the “old guard” types get assigned the job of enforcing angels in heaven and their job is to give people that shouldn’t be together a really hard time about it until the people decide that it’s easier to be apart from one another than to deal with the harassment. – – – –
There are lots of factors behind our attempt to define an afterlife, hopes and fears being among them. Story time.
I’m a convert, the only person in my family to join the church. When my grandfather died my grandmother, knowing my dedication to the church, asked me whether she’d be able to be with her husband in heaven. I told her, “Of course.” But she was inconsolable. Someone from her church had already answered her question before she had asked me. They told her that in heaven we’ll all be indistinguishable, in essence having no identity, and that we wouldn’t be together because we wouldn’t be able to tell one person from another. It seems like a horrible thing to say to someone that had just lost their spouse of over six decades, even if you do believe it. She was feeling loss and fear. I’d rather answer with something that inspires a little hope than whatever nonsense I actually believe.
Roy wrote:
Maybe times have changed. Most people today assume that if there is an afterlife you will get to spend it with loved ones.
Despite my anecdotal story I think times
havechanged. We’re still stuck with a (I apologize for this characterization in advance) sales pitch from 100 years ago but more and more people have defaulted to the position that relationships will continue in the afterlife. That’s the default position, that means no strings attached (required ordinances). Quote:“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 110).
I also don’t think we really know how eternal families really work because we don’t know what the after life really is like. Are we all together on a planet? Are we in some mansion? Who is there and who isn’t? Is it just my spouse or all my kids, and their spouses, and then how does that work with in-laws and everybody??????
One way to avoid the anguish around Eternal Families…is to kind of approach it like our
Quote:non Mormon religious people have a sense they will be with their loved ones again.
At some point, it all boils down to just focusing on being a good person…the rest will work out.
Cadence, I had similar thoughts to yours after listening to Radio Free Mormon’s podcast called The Exaltation Complication. I also just listened to the Salt Lake Tribune’s Mormon Land interview of the author of a biography of Jane Manning James. She basically fought her whole life to be sealed to some kind of Church family in the eternities and was insulted with being sealed to JS as a servant. It was so sad, she believed so much and really got a raw deal. I agree with Roy that in the 1800s all the talk was of heaven and hell, fire and brimstone and our theology seemed incredibly progressive and hopeful. People worried a lot about their eternal salvation and these things provided great comfort. Now, they seem very rigid and arbitrary and I don’t think make sense for a lot of people, especially the polygamous second marriage sealings.
I wish we’d take President Oaks’ talk a few steps further, we don’t know a lot about the afterlife, we hope that our theology provides we will be with our loved ones there. I wish we’d focus on the here and now; to me, spending all the time and energy approving, cancelling and working through sealings is the kind of minutia that J. Golden Kimball referred to as “sweeping up mouse turds.”
felixfabulous wrote:I wish we’d take President Oaks’ talk a few steps further, we don’t know a lot about the afterlife, we hope that our theology provides we will be with our loved ones there. I wish we’d focus on the here and now; to me, spending all the time and energy approving, cancelling and working through sealings is the kind of minutia that J. Golden Kimball referred to as “sweeping up mouse turds.”
Good point. We do spend an inordinate amount of time in the church fretting over an afterlife we have little to no understating of. Imagine if we put all that energy into fixing the problems of today.
This comment could go here or the ‘LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?’ thread. I find it disheartening that during the
samegeneral conference the exact same speakergave two talks that contradict one another: In one talk a woman’s concerns about being the second wife in heaven are laughed off. The answer was:
Quote:When we ask ourselves what we know about the spirit world from the standard works, the answer is ‘not as much as we often think.’
So we don’t know a whole lot about the afterlife. Fine. But during the second talk we find that one thing we apparently know for sure is that those “who do not believe in or choose not to follow God’s commandments about marriage and the law of chastity” will go to a lesser kingdom… but no worries. The lesser kingdoms are still pretty good.
On the subject of polygamy we don’t know much, but on the subject of gay marriage we’ve got it all figured out. It sounds like our revelations about the afterlife are filtered mostly through heterosexual polygamists.
Our practical doctrine literally says every couple who has ever lived will be sealed in the temple, and God will sort it out. That currently excludes same-sex couples, but our actual, ordinal practice is FAR more expansive than the vast majority of religions and denominations. Honestly, I think this concern focuses so narrowly on statements that are old (within the timeline of the Church’s existence) and out-dated that is ignores what we actually teach as foundational doctrine now. Granted, some of the top leadership miss this point in some of their talks focused on keeping members faithful, so it is uunderstandable that others do, as well.
I don’t mean at all to dismiss the concern, but here, where we deal regularly in nuance and trying to see the big picture, I think it is good to keep the temple liberality in mind:
Everyone will be sealed, and God will sort it out.
Old Timer wrote:
Everyone will be sealed, and God will sort it out.
Those who want to feel more special than others, or more chosen by God because they labored all day in the vineyard have difficulty with that concept. They want it to be more of an exclusive club.
But that is what creates the problems Cadence raises.
And I think any belief that there are exclusive benefits for temple recommend holders is false doctrine.
God will sort it out is the only thing that makes sense. It is not our job to judge.
Old Timer wrote:
Everyone will be sealed, and God will sort it out.
And/or sealing may be a tangible representation of a spiritual concept – an outward demonstration of an inward commitment to pursue connection and relationship with our fellow children of God.
Either the sealing ordinance is necessary but everyone gets sealed – so it is really how we our love motivates us to act that sets us apart
or
The sealing ordinance is symbolic – a conceptual device to help us turn the hearts of the children to the parents and the hearts of the parents the children with the ultimate goal of focusing our love in ways that motivate us to act.
regardless, it seams that it can be really easy to “miss the mark” or focus on the hand pointing to the moon and miss the moon.
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