- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
It may not be so much a function of what the church teaches men to be but what type of man gravitates to the church. Of course there are always outliers, but as a whole I will stand by my experience that the real TBM men exhibit a more passive personality. It’s not a criticism just an observation.
Weak men don’t like to be told they are weak, and strong men don’t like to be told they are weak. Must be a man thing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Cadence wrote:
It may not be so much a function of what the church teaches men to be but what type of man gravitates to the church.Of course there are always outliers, but as a whole I will stand by my experience that the real TBM men exhibit a more passive personality. It’s not a criticism just an observation.
Weak men don’t like to be told they are weak, and strong men don’t like to be told they are weak. Must be a man thing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have it on pretty good authority that none of the Q15 are passive, and all have very strong personalities. I would not classify any of them, including Eyring, as “weak” and I triple dog dare you to walk up to one of them and tell him how weak he is. (Yes, I know the triple dog dare is a breech of etiquette.)
ETA: (For the record I try not to wade into these gender/sexism discussions because I get myself in trouble. Alas, here I am again.) I have a long commute, I leave my house at 5:30 in the morning and count myself lucky to be home at 6 in the evening. The commute can be much longer in the winter. I do my own house repairs, I can do minor car repairs (harder on modern cars with all of the electronics), I keep my yard and gardens nice. I shovel snow (sometimes feet of snow) in the winter and mow my half acre with a walk behind mower in the summer. I am a proud veteran from a long line of veterans who served from the American Revolution through Viet Nam. My tenth great-grandfather was a Mayflower Pact signer. Nothing I did when I was in the army was nearly as hard as what any of them did – but I was a soldier through and through.
None of that makes me strong.I have been known to visit the changing table – watch out for boys, their aim is uncanny. I like to cook and I am a better cook than my wife, although she has specialties that run circles around what I can do. I cook at least half the time because I get home before she does because she works 10 hour days so she can Fridays off. I know how to use the washer and the vacuum cleaner. Together, my wife and I taught our children how to be Christians, even in the midst of my faith crisis. One of the few things I remember our sealer saying was to treat my wife like the queen she is – and I am far from perfect at that but I do try. I have been known to cry during “How Great Thou Art,” “I Stand All Amazed,” and other hymns and on rare occasion during a talk when I didn’t steel myself enough because I underestimated the power of the Light side.
None of that makes me weak.I believe that there is definitely some truth to this. In my mission in south America it was customary for many men to go play soccer and drink with the guys on Sunday. Not all men did this but enough of them did that it was seen as the macho thing to do. When a man was baptized into the church they had to give up the alcohol that was seen as a part of being macho. They likely also had to give up hanging with the guys in bars. It is not a sin to hang out in bars with the guys but it is definitely discouraged both officially and unofficially. It is expected to come to church on Sunday. Even if you can change out of your church clothes in time to play a few rounds of soccer – it is discouraged and seen by many as a breach of the Sabbath. In exchange for that “lifestyle”, we LDS offer the brotherhood of the priesthood. It would be socially unacceptable to complain about your nagging wife in a gathering of priesthood men. We do service projects. We help people move. We don’t look at porn or ogle other women. We don’t swear (even when women or children are not around). We shake hands and wear ties. I am sure that there are many examples of the type of culture that LDS men are indoctrinated into. I agree that I am not quite comfortable calling it effeminate – yet it certainly appears to be something different than the machismo that I observed as a missionary.
As a follow up thought to this. I believe that what is acceptable in corporate culture has also been shifting. There is a shift away from “boys will be boys”, “the boys club”, the glass ceiling etc. Sexual harassment is a big no-no (quid pro quo or hostile work environment). Hitting another is almost never justified. We seem to be less touchy about offenses to our honor. Even the soccer games, and hanging around in bars on Sundays that I observed on my mission – those were populated by the working class men. The more corporate men did not seem to spend their time that way. One could say that in indoctrinating LDS men to become good priesthood brethren the LDS church is also indoctrinating LDS men to become better corporate employees.
Roy wrote:
I believe that there is definitely some truth to this. In my mission in south America it was customary for many men to go play soccer and drink with the guys on Sunday. Not all men did this but enough of them did that it was seen as the macho thing to do. When a man was baptized into the church they had to give up the alcohol that was seen as a part of being macho. They likely also had to give up hanging with the guys in bars. It is not a sin to hang out in bars with the guys but it is definitely discouraged both officially and unofficially. It is expected to come to church on Sunday. Even if you can change out of your church clothes in time to play a few rounds of soccer – it is discouraged and seen by many as a breach of the Sabbath.In exchange for that “lifestyle”, we LDS offer the brotherhood of the priesthood. It would be socially unacceptable to complain about your nagging wife in a gathering of priesthood men. We do service projects. We help people move. We don’t look at porn or ogle other women. We don’t swear (even when women or children are not around). We shake hands and wear ties. I am sure that there are many examples of the type of culture that LDS men are indoctrinated into. I agree that I am not quite comfortable calling it effeminate – yet it certainly appears to be something different than the machismo that I observed as a missionary.
But that’s just the thing, Roy. The underlying current in this thread is that because we do those things – because we don’t hang out at the bar after work or play soccer on the Sabbath – we’re “emasculated” or less manly or less macho. I know lots of good manly men who don’t hang out at bars and aren’t necessarily religious (although we’re far from the only church that discourages such behavior). How does hanging out at a bar or playing soccer on Sunday make anyone more or less of a man? Just because you have a Harvard Law degree and have chosen (and perhaps been raised in) a more “genteel” lifestyle, are you less of a man? Even if you played Harvard lacrosse or rugby? Maybe I’m missing something here, but is there something wrong with being a refined human being? Don’t misunderstand, I’m also not saying there’s anything wrong with the Archie Bunker type who does go to the bar for a drink after work (and where I live there are plenty of Archie Bunkers) – I just don’t think that makes him any more or less of a man.
I’ve made this observation on other threads here before. My ward has many educated men (and women). We have doctors, lawyers, engineers, college professors, etc. We also have restaurant bussers, retail workers and those who have trouble finding gainful employment. The former are almost all raised in the church members and those that aren’t converted at a younger age and gained their education after conversion (I fall into that category). The people who are being baptized in my ward (and baptisms are rare) mostly fall into the second group, or in other words they’re not doctors, lawyers or engineers and in many cases don’t have the capacity to be those things. Some of those guys in the first category do their own roof repairs and house painting even though they could afford to pay someone to do it. Some of those guys in the second category do pay others to do those things even though they have to go into debt to do so (or get church assistance). Which ones are not emasculated, macho or manly?
This is the central issue I have with discussions that try to identify or define “real men”, which is the underlying, unexpressed vibe of lots of conversations about being a man. What is a real man like? A real man is like whoever any particular man is. A man who fits a hyper-masculine stereotype is no more of a man than a man who would be labeled extremely effeminate – and vice-versa. A farmer is no more of a man than a hairdresser. A construction worker is no more of a man than a ballet dancer. A doctor is no more of a man than a nurse. A sexually active heterosexual man is no more of a man than a sexually active homosexual man. They all are “real men”.
What kind of man is an ideal man? I would say one who lives the greatest commandment (all-encompassing love) no matter what he looks like or how else he acts or what he does for a living or his relationship status or, or, or, or. Another way to say it would be an ideal man is a man who has the characteristics mentioned in the Sermon on the Mount as being “blessed”.
Jesus was strong and forceful and demanding, but he also was kind and gentle and forgiving and long-suffering and patient. He was neither masculine nor feminine exclusively. He was both. He was perfect in that he was complete, whole, and fully-developed. He didn’t care about being masculine or feminine. He cared about about being everything good.
I think the LDS Church has plenty of sex/gender issues that need to be addressed, but encouraging men to not be solely stereotypical men but also to have characteristics that historically are labeled as feminine qualities is not one of those issues, in my mind.
This has been a good discussion that has encouraged me to think about how males are socialized in the church and in other social groups. Thank you. Carry on.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.