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I saw a very interesting article in the Trib about an experiment at the University of Utah in which images of the brain were taken before and after a spiritual experience received by active, returned missionaries. Apparently certain areas of the brain lit up during the period the subjects reported “feeling the Spirit”. There is more to the article, but I share it here for interest.
http://www.sltrib.com/home/4617561-155/study-shows-mormons-brains-light-up Do you think this provides evidence the Spirit is real, and that people do feel the Spirit from God?
You are pushing my “this is ALL made up” button. I am trying to at least salvage my faith to be able to be a Christian, but the more scientific/logical side pushes really hard the other way when I go look at things like this. What if a Muslim was put in the machine and they had the same brain responses as the RM’s? Wouldn’t that tend to say this is all made up? I have watched documentaries that show an average joe that gets a concussion and after that point they are 100% focused on god and/or nature. This area nudges me towards a slippery slope heading towards atheism. Albus Percival Wolfric Brian Dumbledore wrote:Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?
That said, I’d love to see some follow-up studies, too.
A good Q&A with one of the researchers: Albus Percival Wolfric Brian Dumbledore wrote:Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?
I love that quote.
Quote:Participants had to be 20- to 30-year-old returned Mormon missionaries who were active members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. While in the MRI machine, participants were shown clips of spiritually evocative, LDS Church-produced videos and were allowed time to read scriptures and pray.
It sounds like they were measuring emotional responses, like something most Pixar movies would trigger, or is that the spirit? Is it just the label we assign things?
LookingHard wrote:What if a Muslim was put in the machine and they had the same brain responses as the RM’s? Wouldn’t that tend to say this is all made up?
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no Law.”
Those things aren’t unique to the LDS church. In orthodox speak we’d say that a person can feel the spirit before receiving the gift of the holy ghost in order for them to recognize truth. You’d almost expect some type of physiological response, right? Otherwise how could the spirit be felt?
A Muslim might not get much out of watching a video about the first vision but they might have similar scans when shown videos about things that they hold sacred. Like being shown images of your child as a baby vs. being shown some random baby pictures. Maybe the response it triggered in part by preexisting emotional ties.
The following link is to a discussion about a Documentary: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4123&hilit=medication In the documentary a student decides to pose as a spiritual guru to see how people might react to his relatively made up teachings. In the end he reveals himself as just a student conducting an experiment of sorts.
I’d really like to see similar studies done on other religions. I bet a devout Catholic who loves the pope might have a very similar reaction to these young men when shown a clip of the pope dispensing some of his wisdom (as opposed to a clip of Pres. Monson). It’d also be very interesting to see reactions of non-members when being shown something we believe induces the Spirit in others, the account of the First Vision for instance. The idea that only Mormons experience spiritual experiences is ludicrous! Obviously that’s not correct. But I also tend to think that this study (and often the church) is conflating emotional experiences with spiritual ones. We are human beings. We are emotional about relationships and love and inspiration and baby porcupines. That’s not the same thing as a spiritual experience. But you’d never know it from the schmaltzy commercials we crank out. Then again, when does an emotional/intellectual experience end and a spiritual experience begin? I find that I can’t fully separate the two. In my experience, “spiritual” experiences are more about making sure emotional and intellectual reasons for doing things are correct than about tuning in to some mystical force. ydeve – what you said reminded me of what Charles Taylor describes as living in a “haunted” secular age. We yearn for meaning in our lives and for some that’s as simple as yoga class or lunch with friends (personal connection). These things have replaced the search for transcendence that was the hallmark of earlier generations of Christians living in less logical, more magical times. It’s an interesting read. The article indicates the part of the brain that was simulated by the spiritual experience is the same part of the brain that lights up during drug use or other thrill-related sensory input. I see the lighting up of the brain as an indication of the PERCEPTION of the JS story as something thrilling, magical, or spiritual, not as it actually being a proven spiritual experience.
To me, it proves very little other than the movie has a lot in common with other high sensory experiences people have. It doesn’t prove the existence of the spirit.
SilentDawning wrote:The article indicates the part of the brain that was simulated by the spiritual experience is the same part of the brain that lights up during drug use or other thrill-related sensory input.
I see the lighting up of the brain as an indication of the PERCEPTION of the JS story as something thrilling, magical, or spiritual, not as it actually being a proven spiritual experience.
To me, it proves very little other than the movie has a lot in common with other high sensory experiences people have. It doesn’t prove the existence of the spirit.
I agree SD. To me it’s a lot more about emotional response and perhaps even confirmation bias than anything else. As I said earlier, I doubt a devout member of any other church would have similar reactions to some of the things these young men and women did. Members of other churches do claim to have spiritual experiences and even use the terminology of feeling the spirit or being moved by the spirit or Holy Ghost. I am particularly thinking of some Pentecostal and Evangelical people I have known over the years and some “charismatic” services of different churches I have attended. I believe that they believe they have spiritual experiences in the the same way Mormons believe they do, and I think these others would not have the same reaction as devout members if shown the First Vision video. It would be very interesting to see.
At least in this life, perception is reality for almost all of us.
I think it would be interesting to have a control group that watches something a-religious, such as documentary on sea creatures, an experimental A group where Mormons watch the JS story, and an B group where some muslims or hindus watch a movie that is generally regarded as spirital. I would suspect that both the A and B experimental groups would have their brains light up due to the perception of spirituality within their own religion.
Another interesting experimental design would be to then have the Hindus or Muslim group watch the JS story, and the Mormons watch the Hindu/Muslim video, and see what impact that has on the brain.
Reuben wrote:Albus Percival Wolfric Brian Dumbledore wrote:Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?
That said, I’d love to see some follow-up studies, too.
:thumbup: I wonder if they’ll do studies with controls and other elements, not just “spiritual experience”. What about comparing to emotional experiences? Artistic expressions? Mathmatical proofs?
How the brain works is fascinating.
I’m not sure science is the right realm for proving things spiritual.
Heber13 wrote:I’m not sure science is the right realm for proving things spiritual.
I agree with that whole-hardheartedly. I think even some TBM’s would agree with that, but probably not the same way I think of it.
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