The One and Only "TRUE" Church

[Anonymous]

I think this was one of my first questions here. I don’t remember what I wrote but – I know my cookies (that I’m eating lol) are true cookies, that is what it says on the box that I got them out of – I really hope they are cookies that I’m eating and not chemicals .. I don’t know everything they are made of (well the box says all ingredients BUT I don’t understand them all). I know it costs 4 dollars for me to get them. I know I like them – They are true cookies to the best of my knowledge b/c the box says so, the supermarket says so and the people that ask me to share them, call them cookies. They exist.

I know that I asked DH “WTH does The Church is True mean anyways?” and I don’t remember an outstanding answer from him and he uses the term often – It is cool to think it is a personal thing, when we hear people testify of it BUT I think it is an oversimplified statement that causes people to stop thinking and repeat-repeat and talk themselves into the statement-Kind of an empty statement if you ask me-If I thought The Church was the Absolute True Church of God I think I could come up with some better stuff than “I know this Church is True” Know what I’m saying? Anyway

Imo the most important thing you can do now is follow current Church leaders – And if you believe in The Church being true you believe in everything they say – Sadly best way(from what it seems like) to be unquestioning … with enough faith (and no pride) to believe that when the leaders speak the thinking is done.

Do leaders really want us to seek and find personal revelation? .. Or do you think they really want to have the last word and should .. Do you think people that seem to put leaders above themselves think others are wrong.. or of little faith for questioning or rewriting what The Church means? Who is right .. Who is wrong? Confusing ….. Gives me a headache.

So what it boils down to imo is TRUE=Believing and trusting that current Church Leaders are right (With their thinking on JC – What JS did and saw – What we need to do today – What needs to change … Who What When Where WHY)-Leaders are right-They have the answers .. Is in short what I think TRUE means. True equals we do everything the right way-and currently we have the most info on anything and everything than any other organization or individual could have with regards to Gods plan.

[Anonymous]

Bruce in Montana wrote:

Well, it’s only my opinion but I’ll try.

If the adversary knows that a person will not willfully fall into an intentional sinful lifestyle, then it would never work to tempt him/her with such. However, if he can use our weaknesses to fool us into a less-than-perfect path, then that just might work.

As far as I know, the only path offered to our greatest potential (exaltation) is the restored gospel. Correct me if I’m wrong.

If that is true, than it seems to stand to reason that any deviation from that is cheating ourselves.

No offense Bruce but my favorite part about ideas like this is to ask who defines the “sinful lifestyle” or the “less-than-perfect path.” In my limited experience this ALWAYS goes back to something a mortal being said (except for the cases of the few individuals who actually started the idea of said path in the first place). Hence, they defer to a “prophet” of some kind (or some other authoritative man-made source) which I am very uncomfortable with. What I’m getting at, is that the “path” is often attributed to God and the “one correct path,” but this isn’t really accurate. It’s actually the path that so-and-so said was the correct path. That’s a huge difference.

Here’s an interesting thought exercise. If each of us started from square one, and did nothing but our own independent study (not relying on any holy books, or looking to any revered prophets) what kind of “path” would we come up with? Would it be Mormonisms path? I highly doubt it. In fact, I suspect if there were 50 billion people who did it, we would have 50 billion different versions of the “correct path.” A bunch of those people would claim that God told them it was correct, a bunch more would use a scientific method, others would defer to other people, etc. etc.

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

I suspect if there were 50 billion people who did it, we would have 50 billion different versions of the “correct path.” A bunch of those people would claim that God told them it was correct, a bunch more would use a scientific method, others would defer to other people, etc. etc.

Forgive me, but that sounds more cynical than I would have expected from you. Perhaps you were just expressing your darkest suspicion rather than your best guess. The way I see it, and I’m telling you I have ranged the globe and spanned the ages with an engineer’s scientific mind looking for harmony and some common thread in it all, is this. I can tell you that what I saw emerge was a highly consistent watchamacallit across time and turf. I’ll use my own language and tell you I saw God revealing himself in ancient India to the Emperor Ashoka and to the Bhuddha. I rejoiced with the conversion of Tolstoy and Perpetua. I felt the brotherhood of Whitman, Thoreau, and Zoroaster. And I tipped my hat to George Fox, Martin Luther King Jr., and Elizabeth Kubler Ross. I dropped my jaw at Ramakrishna, Joseph Smith Jr, and Jesus. I bowed reverently before the man on the street. I listened respectfully to Howard Storm, George Ritchie, George Rodonaia, Beverly Brodsky, and even Betty Andreasson (!) and dozens of other nameless common people like them. I heard one voice declaring one message. I doubt your mileage will vary. Have faith, brother. Have faith.

What -ism shall I choose? Which -ism is the One True? Ahh, a trick question. All the -isms are true. And none of them are true. And yet the Truth is there plain and firm and awaiting discovery. Will we be good scientists and discover it? Keep good notes, run good experiments, collect good data, set up good conditions, understand proper analysis, discern spurious effects.

Tom

Tom

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

What -ism shall I choose? Which -ism is the One True? Ahh, a trick question. All the -isms are true. And none of them are true. And yet the Truth is there plain and firm and awaiting discovery. Will we be good scientists and discover it? Keep good notes, run good experiments, collect good data, set up good conditions, understand proper analysis, discern spurious effects.

Tom

Tom

So True!

[Anonymous]

great post Tom. I agree to have seen God’s work in so much of our world. I’ve always thought it audacious for any church to claim to know the mind of God. I see so many philosophies and religions all claiming their path leads to the truth, always this truth at the end of the road. I sometimes wonder if the truth isn’t on or at the end of a certain path, but is the air all around us. There- that’s my Truth metaphor.

[Anonymous]

Just to keep things in perspective, please remember that Bruce is personally more on the believing fundamentalist side of the spectrum. That’s fine here. We are all trying to find our way. If it works, it works.

I’ll throw my view in on the 50 billion paths idea. I think there are 50 billion paths too, but they don’t all lead to the same place. I currently have hope in and believe that each of our paths are exactly right for us, or maybe also that we create our own path. Even horrible people are on their right path, as much as that causes pain and suffering for themselves and others at times. That experience will eventually come back to them in full realization, so that good and evil over time mold us into filling the measure of our creation (whatever God created us to become).

So all paths are the ones we follow. I believe God is aware of this and it is his design. I think in the end they all lead to the results God desires, so in the extreme long term it is all for good. All paths don’t lead to the same result, but they all lead us where we are supposed to go.

[Anonymous]

Valoel wrote:

All paths don’t lead to the same result, but they all lead us where we are supposed to go.

I like that.

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

jmb275 wrote:

I suspect if there were 50 billion people who did it, we would have 50 billion different versions of the “correct path.” A bunch of those people would claim that God told them it was correct, a bunch more would use a scientific method, others would defer to other people, etc. etc.

Forgive me, but that sounds more cynical than I would have expected from you. Perhaps you were just expressing your darkest suspicion rather than your best guess. The way I see it, and I’m telling you I have ranged the globe and spanned the ages with an engineer’s scientific mind looking for harmony and some common thread in it all, is this. I can tell you that what I saw emerge was a highly consistent watchamacallit across time and turf. I’ll use my own language and tell you I saw God revealing himself in ancient India to the Emperor Ashoka and to the Bhuddha. I rejoiced with the conversion of Tolstoy and Perpetua. I felt the brotherhood of Whitman, Thoreau, and Zoroaster. And I tipped my hat to George Fox, Martin Luther King Jr., and Elizabeth Kubler Ross. I dropped my jaw at Ramakrishna, Joseph Smith Jr, and Jesus. I bowed reverently before the man on the street. I listened respectfully to Howard Storm, George Ritchie, George Rodonaia, Beverly Brodsky, and even Betty Andreasson (!) and dozens of other nameless common people like them. I heard one voice declaring one message. I doubt your mileage will vary. Have faith, brother. Have faith.

What -ism shall I choose? Which -ism is the One True? Ahh, a trick question. All the -isms are true. And none of them are true. And yet the Truth is there plain and firm and awaiting discovery. Will we be good scientists and discover it? Keep good notes, run good experiments, collect good data, set up good conditions, understand proper analysis, discern spurious effects.

Tom

Hmmm, sorry if I came across cynical. Maybe I didn’t make myself clear. I like your comment. I revere all those folks as well (well at least the ones I am familiar with). I’m not sure what impression I gave. Let me try again.

Many religious individuals claim exclusivity when it comes to their chosen path. Each path universally began as a mortal being stating something they believed in, or something they believe God told them (or some variation of this). What I’m saying here is that God Himself didn’t announce over a loudspeaker, so all could hear, His one and only True path. Hence, the “true” path or the “sinful” path is always defined by a mortal being. That mortal almost invariably feels compelled to tell their story, or even convince others to follow them, believe them, and adopt their path. I have no problem with, and even love those who tell their story with. Indeed, where would we be without all the people that you mentioned? But the latter, I do have a concern with. Those who eventually convince others that they have the truth, and hence define what is and is not sinful, are people that raise a red flag to me.

Now, for my thought experiment. I am asking the question, what would happen if each individual were asked the question “what is the one true path in life”? The conditions are that each individual could not consult any holy books, or query any self-proclaimed prophets, and all research must be independent. Do you think we would universally proclaim that Mormonism is the true path? How about Hindu, or Buddhism? I am just saying that I think that there would likely be as many different paths as there are people. Think of it this way. If Buddhism didn’t exist, what are the odds of two independent individuals coming up with exactly all the same ideas in Buddhism? The probability of this occurring is probably near 0. That’s all I’m saying.

You are absolutely right, there are many commonalities, as Joseph Campbell in “The Power of Myth” readily demonstrates. And I hold close to those. There is something very powerful in the hero story, and each of us living the hero myth in our own life. But none of these mythologies the world over, are exactly the same. Hence, who decides what’s the right path and wrong path?

I hope that was more clear. Otherwise, I’ve just rambled about nothing. Your last statement about “isms” summed up my thoughts well. Although I’m not sure that the Truth is plain and there waiting for us. Unless it’s no more complicated than Love. Now that I could buy into. In fact, if I had to pinpoint one absolute Truth it’s Love, and that we should all do it.

[Anonymous]

[/quote]

jmb275 wrote:

Many religious individuals claim exclusivity when it comes to their chosen path.

Ooooh, bad.

jmb275 wrote:

What I’m saying here is that God Himself didn’t announce over a loudspeaker, so all could hear, His one and only True path.

Roger. It’s all translated.

jmb275 wrote:

I am asking the question, what would happen if each individual were asked the question “what is the one true path in life”?

I’m thinking most wise people would tell you, “You must find you own path.” One God and one home; many starting points and many paths back?

jmb275 wrote:

Although I’m not sure that the Truth is plain and there waiting for us. Unless it’s no more complicated than Love. Now that I could buy into. In fact, if I had to pinpoint one absolute Truth it’s Love, and that we should all do it.

I know no wise person or angel who would argue that point with you.

[Anonymous]

I think I have said this in another thread or two elsewhere. I think the mythology of Mormonism, its internal story, needs the idea that we are the one true Church. I’ve never gone into a detailed analysis of why that is, but we can all make our own guesses. It’s a sense I have that Mormon’s really need to be “right.” I think it counterbalances the much higher demands required by our religious practice. Islam and Catholicism seem to have flavors of that too, as I think about this off the top of my head.

Churches that don’t have some level of myth of being exclusively correct seem much less powerful at shaping the world around them. I visited a couple of non-denominational protestant churches recently to check out their worship services. They were very nice, very welcoming, very entertaining and emotionally stimulating. I really don’t want to say anything bad about them. I did not have that sense of importance though from them (if that is true or not, just talking about the feeling). I could show up or not. I could be whatever I wanted, because Jesus loves me as I am. But at the same time, it also didn’t matter all that much … because Jesus doesn’t really care what I do or believe. Again, please don’t read my comment with much negativity. I really think those groups do a great work in the faith spectrum of the world.

So for Mormonism, we have this element that we are the “one true Church.” Are we? We have to decide. I interpret that in light of the word “Gospel” instead of Church. I believe in Joseph Smith’s teachings to include all truth within the great whole of the Gospel, wherever we find it. So in that sense, the Gospel is “true” because only true things are in the Gospel. We realize this ideal more or less individually and as an organization depending on our level of faith, righteousness and holiness.

Our problem is not taking this myth to the point of pride, and of shutting ourselves off from more truth.

[Anonymous]

Valoel wrote:

It’s a sense I have that Mormon’s really need to be “right.” I think it counterbalances the much higher demands required by our religious practice.

I think you nailed it, Valoel.

Not as much a counterbalance as much as a necessity. To demand the level of sacrifice required to be “active”, the stakes need to be much higher than just one’s personal salvation through the grace of Christ. In gospel essentials class yesterday, the lesson was on sacrifice (Lesson 27, I believe). The overwhelming sense of the lesson was that sacrifice was THE saving principle. I’m not saying it isn’t, btw.

And, I get that, since the church has no paid clergy, huge beautiful buildings, etc. Most of the mainstream churches in my area meet in public school gymnasiums or hotel conference rooms or have private/charter schools attached. Some of the suburban mega-churches just go for quantity. Their need for each and every individual congregants’ participation/sacrifice is greatly diminished.

I’m not making a value judgment but the payoffs need to be bigger, more significant, more urgent to justify the demands on people’s time and resources.

[Anonymous]

Hmmm.

If I could interject a fundamentalist view….

“…the payoffs need to be bigger, more significant, more urgent to justify the demands on people’s time and resources.”

Compared to the plan in the early restoration, as well as the future plans for the Church, I think the demands on time and resources are miniscule.

No one In the mainstream Church is presently required to divide their resources by living plural marriage.

No one is being required to live the United Order or the Law of Consecration.

In fact, the current Church allows prosperous and impoverished families to coexist…this is certainly not the plan in the scriptures nor the plan for the future.

I would submit that the current mainstream Church members have a comparative cake-walk compared to former and future saints. As a bonus, you won’t even be asked to build your own handcart, walk a thousand miles or so, and bury any family members along the way. What a deal.

As for payoff….increased happiness in this life and the life to come is not too bad IMHO.

..Fundamentalist view only

Disregard if you disagree…

Mileage may vary…

All that stuff……….

[Anonymous]

Bruce in Montana wrote:

Hmmm.

I would submit that the current mainstream Church members have a comparative cake-walk compared to former and future saints. As a bonus, you won’t even be asked to build your own handcart, walk a thousand miles or so, and bury any family members along the way. What a deal.

As for payoff….increased happiness in this life and the life to come is not too bad IMHO.

..Fundamentalist view only

Disregard if you disagree…

Mileage may vary…

All that stuff……….

I have to ask. I had a question in the History section, I think it is “We are History”.. About being living History … blah stuff like that. So do you think we will be considered “Cake-Walk” mormons .. or The Cake- Walk generation … So the very former saints will be admired .. we will be kind of be nothing special to the future saints .. and the future saints will compare themselves to the former saints (not us btw) the ones who built handcarts etc.. ? Just wondering. In all this people have choices .. I’m sorry but I don’t pitty the early saints like I use to – maybe I’m heartless or maybe I don’t believe enough to anymore .. Or future saints like for example my children .. My children , like any non-lds children will make their own choices and hopefully think before they act..etc.

I agree with our payoff though .. happiness in this life and the next is great..Once I get past the anger and saddness of it – it could work .. that is if I don’t give up on it! It is difficult with the uneven-ness of it all , going through this change of heart towards the Church. If the happiness isn’t there presently, people have a difficult time with all of the paying .. you know the paying to recieve the payoff!..I know we have different views on some things, and I don’t mean to sound rude or anything! I just want some different views on what “us” being history means to current members b/c it seems like you might have a good opinion on it. Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Bruce in Montana wrote:

Hmmm.

If I could interject a fundamentalist view….

“…the payoffs need to be bigger, more significant, more urgent to justify the demands on people’s time and resources.”

Compared to the plan in the early restoration, as well as the future plans for the Church, I think the demands on time and resources are miniscule.

No one In the mainstream Church is presently required to divide their resources by living plural marriage.

No one is being required to live the United Order or the Law of Consecration.

In fact, the current Church allows prosperous and impoverished families to coexist…this is certainly not the plan in the scriptures nor the plan for the future.

I would submit that the current mainstream Church members have a comparative cake-walk compared to former and future saints. As a bonus, you won’t even be asked to build your own handcart, walk a thousand miles or so, and bury any family members along the way. What a deal.

As for payoff….increased happiness in this life and the life to come is not too bad IMHO.

..Fundamentalist view only

Disregard if you disagree…

Mileage may vary…

All that stuff……….

Hmmmm, I think you have a point Bruce. I think we do have it easier. I think my counter would be to ask whether or not we really need to sacrifice as you have prescribed? This tends a little to much towards works and not enough toward grace for my taste. I’m not convinced that Jesus/God wants us to do the kind of sacrificing often thought of in the church. I think He asks for one sacrifice – our hearts. I think there is a lot that follows from this one sacrifice, but I think it, in and of itself, is both necessary and sufficient.

[Anonymous]

Nah..Not one and Only but one of many. Truth is in the heart. If you want to believe the Mormon teachings are true, then it will be. If you want to believe the Catholic faith is true, then it will be. If you want to believe that there isn’t a God, then there isn’t one and what I mean is, to each individual, truth lies within. If one believes there’s no God then that’s his truth and he lives his life accordingly until that belief no longer serves his purpose on this earth. If he searches from some other truth, then he will find whatever it is that his experience is calling him to. Seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given.

Mormonism did not fit my complete idea of what a spiritual experience should be and so I looked outside the restricted box and lept into the dark and dreary world; but wait, it is there that I found it not as dreary as some would have me believe and that I find exactly what I am looking for. I tested the theory of it dark and dreary and found just what I expected; That there are many wonderful people, places and things that I was too afraid to get to know, explore and take part in. If I wanted to find a dark and dreary world, there it will be; And if I wanted to find good in all people, then that’s what I will see. And if I wanted to see that a church is true for those that believe in it, then that’s what I will find.

It is my belief, that truth lies within the hearts and minds of man/woman and those truths differ from one to another. Who are we to judge the truth of other people for only the maker knows why and for what purpose those truths exist. And no one is going to go anywhere they are not comfortable. Like attracts like. It is freewill..

[Author]

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