- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Hi all! It’s been a while since I’ve posted here. I still return every so often to lurk and enjoy this wonderfully supportive environment. I love reading all your posts and learning about each of you. So, though I haven’t participated actively for a while, I’ve been reading and want to say thanks.
I’m writing today because there’s an issue that I feel I need some perspective on.
You see, I’ve come to a place where I am *almost* completely comfortable with my life as a Mormon. I’ve learned how to keep doubts to myself while still engaging in the community in a positive, meaningful way. I’ve learned to take what I like and leave what I don’t like. I’ve learned to be supportive of friends who are active LDS–as well as those who struggle or have fallen away. I feel very content with where I am in terms of my relationship with God: I believe He’s led me to this place and I trust He’ll continue to lead me, as He always has.
But there is ONE LINGERING ISSUE that I just can’t shake–and this one issue, I believe, will make or break me as a Mormon: worthiness interviews.
I had some pretty unpleasant experiences with interviews growing up, which I freely admit colors my perspective, but even if the interviews had been handled better (i.e. “correctly”), I still think they’re unreasonable and borderline abusive.
I’ve tried viewing them from a number of different perspectives: they’re a loving way to check in, an opportunity for personal growth and reflection, even God’s way of purifying the membership…but no dice. Everything about them seems wrong. I think they put a wedge between the God and the sinner, and I think they have the RESULT (whether or not it’s the INTENT) of being overly controlling.
If it was just me, I’d be okay. I’d politely decline temple recommend interviews and continue to live my life as a devoted follower of Christ and supportive member of my church community. But it’s not just me. I have a daughter.
She’s three right now, so this is still several years away. But I hate the idea of raising my child in an environment where everyone is totally down with 50-year-old neighbor dudes in positions of tremendous power taking young kids into an office alone and asking questions about their budding sexuality!
It might sound crazy, but I’m not exaggerating when I say that these interviews have been the source of a lot of emotional/psychological/spiritual trauma in my life. Thankfully, through the grace of God, I’ve found peace and healing within myself and in my relationship with Christ, but I’m still EXTREMELY concerned about it.
Here’s my dilemma. Knowing that I absolutely DO NOT want my child participating in these worthiness interviews, what should I do? Should I…
1)–Leave the church and find a faith community that doesn’t have this troubling practice/policy…
2)–Disallow her to attend worthiness interviews (trade-offs here would be confusion for her, exclusion from certain activities like temple trips, and possible fall-out with ward leaders and members)
3)–Speak privately with the bishop and let him know he may meet with her to get to know her, but he is NOT to ask her any questions about worthiness unless SHE has something she’d like to bring up (which could result in the very same thing as #2)
Are there other options? Is there another way to approach this? I’ve seriously considered something like, “make sure he sticks with the script in the interviews”–but I think even the standard “script” questions are unethical, so I ultimately rejected that as useful for me. I’m open to hearing alternative interpretations on the situation as a whole, but know that this is something I’ve thought A LOT about…so they’re probably unlikely to persuade me.
Is there a way to not compromise my beliefs while working within Mormonism on this–and still preserve a faith life for my daughter and good relations with my ward family?
katielangston wrote:Is there a way to not compromise my beliefs while working within Mormonism on this–and still preserve a faith life for my daughter and good relations with my ward family?
First, you are not alone. Many have concerns about exactly what you point out. And we live in a time that, unfortunately, even when some have a priesthood calling, there are some abusers in every culture. I think the process is one that the leaders are aware can be a problem, and discussions are underway to take the high road in the church.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with expressing your concerns to the Bishop. When I was a bishop, I had a few parents talk to me about this, and we concluded it was fine for them to attend the interview if they chose. The problem was that often (mostly in the later teenage years), the child/teenager didn’t want the parent to be there…but it is ultimately the parent’s choice.
So I think it is what
youare comfortable with. FWIW, you are NOT alone with your concerns! I’m not sure I see how interviews provide a wedge between God and the sinner. Confession is a part of repentance, and if we are humble to admit to God our sins, we should be able to admit it to His authorized servants. I’m not sure I’ve ever pondered what the down side is, so this is a good exercise to go through to think about this and hear your experiences. So, maybe you help me understand your concerns a little more. What is the problem with confessing to a Bishop what you’ve done wrong?
What if you look at it from a different area but use the same process…like tithing.
Do you find it offensive to have the Bishop ask if you or your daughter are full tithe-payers? Or is it specific to sexual sins that you are uncomfortable with?
Heber, I think it’s more an issue of our modern concern about having an older man alone in a room with a young woman talking about sex – and I understand that completely. Quote:Knowing that I absolutely DO NOT want my child participating in these worthiness interviews, what should I do?
Your #3 is a great solution. Talk openly with your Bishop about your own experiences, tell him frankly that they were and still continue to be traumatizing, tell him that you will talk with your children about sex as responsible parents should do, and tell him that you want to be there during interviews. If your children choose to ask you not to be there, then your condition is that sex not be discussed. Say in lovingly and gently, but tell him that your own experiences were so horrible that you will do anything to shield your children from the possibility of it happening to them – as a loving parent is supposed to do. Tell him you believe sexual sins are to be confessed – not interrogated out of people, and that asking about sexual sins with those who have not committed them is like the wounding of the hearts that Jacob loathed in the BofM. Tell him you support and sustain him, but you simply can’t agree on this one issue.
If he doesn’t understand and doesn’t agree, that’s fine. Thank him sincerely, leave the office and simply don’t let your children attend worthiness interviews. Explain to them why honestly and openly, and tell them that you still can support your Bishop in his calling despite this difference. That will be a powerful example that they will need.
I agree with Ray. Any reasonable bishop will not be offended by your #3 and will understand. Having said that, as I’ve said elsewhere, there are about 32,000 bishops at a given time. They can’t all be winners. So if you’ve got a lemon, Ray’s outlined a good backup strategy. I had never given this issue a whole lot of thought, but in reading through this thread, I can really understand why it’s such a source of concern. I’d just like to share my daughter’s experience in hopes that it may be of some value here. My daughter is now 27 and divorced. When she was about 18, she began having sex with the man who is now her ex-husband. They met in high school and started dating when she was about 16. Both were raised LDS, although her ex was from a family where neither parent was particularly active in the Church, despite having been married in the temple. My daughter was extremely active in the Church growing up. On school holidays, she and her girlfriends used to go downtown (we live in Salt lake) and do baptisms for the dead and then go over to the Joseph Smith Building and see whatever movie was showing in the Legacy Theater. She wanted to serve a mission and get married in the temple. Then, along came her boyfriend. The day after they slept together for the first time, she called the bishop for an appointment. (I found out about all of this quite a while after it happened.) She was overcome with guilt for what she’d done and knew that she needed to confess to him. I can’t even imagine how difficult it must have been for her. She hadn’t said a word to me or her dad. She just knew what she had to so and made up her mind to do it. Well, I guess the bishop did not exactly react calmly. He demanded that she tell him the name of “the boy” so he could contact his bishop. She refused, and said that if he wanted to confess to his bishop, he would. (As it turns out, that was the furthest thing from “the boy’s” mind.) He talked to her for quite awhile. I don’t really know much about the conversation, other than that she left his office feeling no sense of comfort or support. He told her that she’d need to return for a follow-up interview on a date sometime the next week. All week she dreaded it. Finally, the evening came when she was supposed to meet with him again. Well guess what? He never even showed up. She was relieved in a way, but devastated at the same time. He never bothered to contact her again, to apologize for forgetting or for having something else come up or whatever it was that prevented him from meeting with her.
That first meeting plus what she had been taught in Seminary led her to believe that she had committed a sin second in seriousness to murder and that she could never be forgiven. In her mind, the sin had been committed and she couldn’t turn back the clock, the bishop didn’t care enough about her to truly provide her with compassionate counseling, and her eternal fate was cast in concrete. Once I found out that she and her boyfriend was continuing to be sexually intimate, she didn’t even care enough to bother trying to repent. There was absolutely nothing I could say to change her mind. Well, to make a long story short, she ended up getting on birth control (fortunately) and marrying him. I truly believe she just considered herself “damaged goods” and felt that no one worth having would want her. They were married in a civil ceremony and have not set foot in a church since. The marriage lasted just under 5 years and it was bad from the start. I’m really glad she’s not with him anymore, but she grows further and further away from the church every day. If she were ever to become active again, I’d be surprised. When I think of what she threw away, I am devastated. I know that what she did was wrong, but I also strongly believe that it was our bishop who reinforced the idea in her mind that she had done something so terrible that her Heavenly Fathera could never love her again. Oh how I wish I’d known about that “sin” before the bishop did. I’d give anything to have been able to have some input before he did. I’m sure he’s a good man, but I believe he contributed in a big way to my daughter having left the Church.
Thanks everyone for your feedback! A few clarifications…
–At this point in my journey, I’m disinclined to accept LDS leaders as God’s Authorized servants with a capital “A.” I believe they have a special commission to serve God and lead people to Him–as we all do–and carry a sacred trust and responsibility to do so with love and compassion by virtue of their positions of leadership and influence. I guess you could say I view them in the same vein as one might view a protestant minister or even a parent or a friend.
–On the topic of confession specifically, I believe confession is between God, the sinner, and the offended party. I think bishops, pastors, and counselors should be there if someone needs extra help and voluntarily seeks it–and we should actively encourage folks to do so. But I don’t believe God needs us to go through human beings
as a requirementfor forgiveness or absolution. My faith is that this is what Jesus Christ has done for us. Quote:Do you find it offensive to have the Bishop ask if you or your daughter are full tithe-payers? Or is it specific to sexual sins that you are uncomfortable with?
The short answer is I feel it is inappropriate. If and how I tithe is between God and me. The longer answer is that I probably wouldn’t have thought to ask the question if they didn’t probe into sexuality–and it is the sexual questions that REALLY bother me. I could probably live with it if it weren’t for the sexual questions, even if I have misgivings about the practice in general.
Ray, as usual, your suggestion is really, really good. I’m going to think and pray about it. Thank you.
Katzpur, that is the kind of thing I’m just terrified of happening to my daughter. Thank you for sharing, and I hope it all works out.
A couple of my siblings have had horrific experiences with this, emotional scars that will never heal. There is definitely a fundamental problem here: volunteer clergy, completely untrained in dealing with emotional issues of adolescence. Even the best family therapists take years of education, training and personal experience to begin to be adequate counselors. And, worst of all, these are the most critical years of a persons life.
I have two young boys and hope that I can establish a relationship with them that will allow for them to come to me first in any circumstance. I know that’s naive to a certain extent, but, with my DW, we have started to chart this course, hoping for the best without any real experience as our guide.
I love what Ray said on this. You absolutely have to take the proactive stance. Do not leave anything to chance, hoping for the best.
As for the abusive nature of this, I have to agree. It would take a priesthood leader of incredible insight, sensitivity and experience to give the love and support required to make the experience not be abusive. Emotional abuse is making someone feel guilty, shame, less worthy, or fear. Unfortunately, those tools of emotional abuse are some of the most commonly used in teaching obedience. Therein lies the problem. In cases of disobedience, is it more important to feel shame or to grow from the learning experience? I know, in an ideal world, healthy guilt and experiential growth can coincide. But for a scared 15 year-old girl, who may have been manipulated by an older boy….
In fairness, the church does provide training guides to ecclesiastical leaders which are excellent. Not sure how serious the individual bishop/SP takes these and there should probably be a mechanism to ensure that all leaders are literate on this material, but it is there. Ironically, I discovered this in my “last” priesthood interview when I resigned. After hearing of my struggles recovering from codependency, he pulled out his training brochure on emotional abuse that is given to all ecclesiastical leaders, sharing from it as he had obviously taken it’s study seriously. That understanding made the experience for me a powerful spiritual witness that I was doing the right thing. And, opened the way for me to eventually transcend stage 3 faith.
Life has a way of putting seemingly insurmountable obstacles in our way. It forces us to learn, to grow, to experience, to live. This is the beautiful tragedy of it all. But, no matter how tragic, it can still be beautiful, when looking inward rather than outward.
We are raised in the church to trust our bishops and that it is taboo to question them. We are taught to think of them in very unrealistic terms (imo) and with perhaps even unfair expectations. I would like to see some of this change. I think we set ourselves up for some of this pain. And There are ways of supporting authority AND negotiating solutions at the same time. Why not talk it out with the bishop first? The Lord teaches us to prepare every needful thing. God chooses the weak things of the world to do his work so maybe we need to take some of this up with Him. Or maybe we just need to trust more than we fear.
Having been thru my fair share of sexual traumas and painful interviews, I am holding out the belief that most situations are good and beneficial and uplifting even if there are moments of discomfort and even mistakes. Most of even my most painful interviews had some blessing there for me to find. Sometimes the discomfort of honesty is a good thing as we learn to live in humility and banish shame. Perhaps it is a challenge for each of us to learn to use the people and the processes of the church for the purposes that God has outlined. This is always a learning process for the person on both sides of the interview. Always.
Confession is good for the soul. And we fight sinful darkness and shame with light and truth and love. Confession helps us do that. Even Jesus sent those He healed to the priests. Why did he do that? If Christ says go the priests, then we go. He didn’t say go to the priests only if they do it right. The priest is just a tool.
Owning ones worthiness is good too. And there is value to having worthiness interviews. They prepare us and help us perform valueable gut checks. They help us with accountability. Teaching our kids that they are only accountable to God is not exactly a true thing. We are responsible to ourselves and others in this world. And they will be interviewed many times in their lives and held to various sets of standards. I also think it is important to teach that spiritual blessings come only to those who are ready and that sacred things shouldn’t be triffled with. God may love us but He doesn’t bless us with everything we want just because we want it.
It has been my challenge to fight the fears created by my wounds and live in hope. I haven’t found much wisdom or peace in controlling outcomes or people. Or in hyper reactions to protect myself. I think if you did try to interfere too much with the interview experience you might stifle the organic spiritual possibilities not to mention important independence growth that your child might benefit from. It might be likened to going to the dentist. Sometimes the kids behave a heck of a lot better when mom isn’t there hovering. Our kids have to learn how to stand and navigate this world on their own. We don’t do our kids any favors by being helicopter parents or saying to ourselves that we can’t handle it if our kids have a painful experience. They will have painful experience. It is part of the earth life deal. So we can either teach them how to view it and process it to places of love and gratitude or we can nurture fear and weakness and resentments. I appreciate the difficulties illustrated in Katspurs example. But frankly I feel like more emphasis should be placed on the personal responsibility of this girl to make better decisions and to learn how to own her own repentance and how to navigate immature bishops and manipulative boyfriends. And we can’t know why that bishop didn’t show up that day. Maybe his cranky mother called and wouldn’t get off the phone. Maybe his wife needed a moment. Or maybe he was a nerd. My point is that sometimes we overreact when things don’t go well….and at the end of the day his weakness is irrelevant.
These interviews are for our benefit! We don’t lose our self power by walking into the bishops office unless we give it away. The bishop doesn’t decide how we feel or think inside and missing an interview or saying something stupid can’t change the hope of Christ and his vast capacity to heal and elevate. We have to take the responsibility for our own spiritual worthiness and healing in times of sin. IMO….The interview process nutures this kind of self love, EVEN when the process doesn’t work perfectly.
I really believe in personal responsiblity and personal revelation. Some bishops and church leaders are very inspired and give good advice, others are not. I know this, they are human and can make mistakes (serious ones sometimes). The problem lies with members who are not spiritually strong or independent and believe everything thing that comes out of a leaders mouth is inspired by God. Here are some examples: 1. When I was on my mission in Austria, I had a companion who hit on me inappropriately one night. It really frightened me and we talked about it the next morning. I was very kind but told her this could never happen again. She felt so bad and did not understand herself why this happened. Anyway, without telling me, she went to our mission president to confess and he treated her horrible. He told her how disgusting homosexuality is and that she must never again act on her lesbian feelings again. Not knowing that she had gone to the mission president with this, he called me in privately. It was shocking to find out she had been to him and he told me that she did say it was all her fault. Nevertheless, he implied that I must have done something to lead her on and that I was as disgusting as she was. He completely ruined the rest of our missions for us and this poor companion never forgave herself for what she did til the day she died 5 years ago. It made me sooo angry and I had asked her a few years before she died, “Who do you think wants you to feel horrible about yourself, God or Satan?” She was a beautiful person, but was not able to think for herself enough.
2. When my oldest son was a teenager and went for a youth temple recommend to go on a youth temple trip, our bishop asked him about masturbation. My son simply told him that was none of his business and walked out. I was glad he was strong enough to do that. The guilt put on young men for that is ridiculous. This is an area where I believe Dr. Dobson is correct:
http://boysunderattack.com/masturbation.html 3. One of my customers was my bishops wife. Her husband was one of the best bishops I ever had and so inspired. Before her husband had been bishop, she had been called by another bishop to a calling that would reguire her to do alot of typing or work with her hands. She has very narled hands and horrible arthrihis. She showed this bishop her hands and said I can hardly move my fingers or sign a check even. This bishop told her that he still felt inspired to call her to this position but for her and her husband to pray about it. They did and her husband felt very strongly that God did not want her to do this calling and told this bishop so. This bishop then told her husband that he was wrong and that his inspiration had come from the devil. Well, he was strong enough to know this bishop has some problems.
Lastly, when my youngest son, who is gay went to the bishop about his same-sex attraction, he was asked by this bishop how he could possibly know he was gay if he had never had sex before. My son replied with “How did you know you were straight before you had sex?” Duh, My point being that unless our children (and we as adults) are strong enough to think for ourselves and raise our kids to know that even though church leaders are generally good inspired men, they can be wrong and make mistakes, I would not do those kind of interviews.
Talk to your bishop and agree on a comfort zone. Tell him what bothers you and why. Talking to people does so much good in the world. I might be optimistic, but I find that the vast majority of people are truly decent folk, especially when approached in the right way.
If that doesn’t work, then don’t do the interviews.
Poppyseed, Quote:Confession is good for the soul
.
Definitely agree with you there! I believe it is an integral part of leading a humble, spiritually in-tune life. What concerns me is the church’s current policy that certain sins REQUIRE the confession to a bishop. Confession to God–absolutely. Confession to the offended party–yes. Confession to trusted friends, counselors, parents, or advisors (which could most certainly include a bishop)–without a doubt. The scriptures are clear that we are to confess our sins to one another (James 5:16), and secrets can tear a person up inside–especially ugly ones. But required confession to a priesthood leader as a PREREQUISITE for forgiveness? I don’t buy it.
I recognize that most LDS would disagree with me here, but then again, I’m coming from a very different place than most LDS–insofar as I don’t believe all church policies are inspired of God and necessarily reflect His will. This would be one for me.
Quote:Owning ones worthiness is good too.
Actually, the most helpful discovery I have ever made in my entire life is owning my UNworthiness.
Let me elaborate what I mean by that. I’m prone to severe perfectionism, and spent my entire youth and young adult life trying in vain to “be worthy.” I was miserable.
It wasn’t until I realized that I’d
never“be worthy” that I first experienced an inkling of what it means to be embraced by God’s love. In my desperation, I gave it all over to Him, and let HIM make me worthy IN SPITE of my fallenness (not BECAUSE of my righteousness)…and in allowing Him“own my worthiness,” I found the first real peace I’d ever known. Having said that, I definitely appreciate the sentiment of taking personal responsibility for one’s actions (which I think is part of the cleansing power of confession, actually). Isn’t it interesting how different people come to relate to the same topics in such disparate ways?
Katie, I personally distinguish between what I have come to call “reactive repentance” and “proactive repentance”. I think both are valid, but I think the first is most critical with habitual, addictive issues. Unfortunately, the “steps of repentance” that have been formalized in our lexicon and culture apply to the reactive type – but too often get applied in situations where it’s proactive repentance that is all that is needed. If you want to read what I wrote long ago about this, here are two links:
(“A Fresh View of Repentance”)
http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/01/rethinking-repentance.html (More Thoughts on Repentance”)
http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/06/more-thoughts-on-repentance.html Hey Katie. I see what you are saying with regards to confession to an arbitrary third party and I completely repsect your objections. There is perhaps a downside to these practices and I do see that they are problematic. There is so much that is subjective about the whole process and the perceptions of both parties are at play too. I don’t know how you solve all the problems or prevent mistakes from happening. Sometimes I can’t even say that there was a mistake. Just two people that didn’t hear one another or meet some spiritual or emotional need. And that is just part of humanness as far as I can tell.
I guess I would be sad to see the confession practice discontinued. It has been good for me at times, and good for others I know who needed burdens lifted and who were able to trust another human with a shameful act/secret or a sinful burden. I think it helps to bring light to the darkness and to help pop the bubble of denial. Truth sets us free and telling the truth outloud to a neutral party, I think is a cleansing thing. Telling God, yes, that must be part of the process always. Telling the person we may have harmed important too. But usually when I am telling the person I offened, it is usually about them…..helping to heal them. When I confess, it is then souly and privately about me and my pains, weakness, and desires. And I am grateful for a place where I can go and tell the stuff that I can’t say to neighbors and family and friends. I don’t know how it happens, but I somehow inspite of it all think God is very involved in the process even if there are things said that we don’t want to hear or mistakes made too.
And I just want to commiserate with you as I am a recovering perfectionist too. It definitely is a trap of mormonism and culture and I am always sad when I see these ideas promoted as gospel. It is nice to know we are worthy and good and kind and talented without all the performances and practices to prove it. It feels good to rise above twisting ourselves into pretzels trying so hard to be good. Cheers to self acceptance and the pursuits of excellance instead of perfection.
Oh boy, this is a can of worms for me. 1) I have a niece who has some sexual issues and when she went to the bishop, the kind of detail he demanded went way beyond his role as a bishop. Spooky. It was like he was getting gratification out of the interview.
2) Does anyone know the history of the exact questions in the temple interviews? I know they haven’t always been this specific. I mean, Brigham Young chewed tobacco and I assume he still got into the temple. I suspect some it came about with Joseph F. Smith, some with Heber J. Grant, some with McKay and some with Kimball.
3) I have a real problem with how miserable the church makes our young men about masturbation issues. I just don’t get it. Don’t they have a clue that this is probably the preeminent reason they lose young men in the church??? I just can’t figure out what the crime is. I don’t have statistics, but I’ll bet over half of our active young men spend their teenage years in misery over this.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.