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HiJolly wrote:
… after that I had testicular cancer, so I’m covered
😈 )😆 😆 😆
And Ray, yes, I *do* sing tenor…
HiJolly
Heber13 wrote:Do you think they were teaching “never use contraception” or only those that had no kids, or maybe only 1 or 2 and didn’t want anymore.
Regardless of who the intended audience was, folks with 1 child or several, the fact is that church members (and I don’t mean the leadership here, I mean your run-of-the-mill member) use these statements and apply them in their life and to the life of others. They then use their “knowledge” of these things and apply them to others, making thoughtless generalizations about people who limit the number of children they have. And this sort of thing is pervasive – my bishop (who is usually so easy-going and liberal in many of his approaches to church things) on Sunday basically compared my DH’s and my (current) decision to have only 1 child to selfishness, and was confused as he replied, “The two of you [my DH and I] are so generous, I’m just surprised to see you curtail your child-bearing.” It would have been one thing if this was a comment made in a private worthiness interview. It wasn’t – it was in his car with his wife and kids as we were on our way home from church. I let it go, because I realize that he is speaking from a culture he is used to, a culture of child-bearing.
Anyway, this is a soapbox so I should really get off it. However, there was one other interesting quote that I found from Pres. Joseph F. Smith in 1917 that basically equated child-bearing with exaltation:
Quote:“In answer to your communication in which you ask me for my views on the issue of “birth control, or the limiting of the number of children in a family to one or two”… I have this to say: The first great commandment given both to man and beast by the Creator was to ‘multiply and replenish the earth;’ and I have not learned that this commandment was ever repealed. Those who attempt to pervert the ways of the Lord and prevent their offspring from coming into the world in obedience to this great command, are guilty of one of the most heinous crimes in the category. There is no promise for eternal salvation and exaltation for such as they, for by their acts they prove their unworthiness for exaltation and unfitness for a kingdom where the crowning glory is teh continuation of the family union and eternal increase…” – Pres. Joseph F. Smith, Relief Society Magazine 3:367-368, July 1916
Elsewhere in the text it basically says the only time birth control can be used is during lactation and pregnancy, and that by “self control on part of the husband and father.”
THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 90
25 Let your families be small, especially mine aged servant Joseph Smith’s, Sen., as pertaining to those who do not belong to your families;
Footnotes
25a Mosiah 4: 27 (26-27).
27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
I truly believe God wants us to use wisdom and do what’s right for our own situations. I had terrible health growing up and a compromised immune system from being born at 3 pounds after WWII in Germany. I had 3 ‘horrible’ pregnancies, childbirths, and colicky babies. My husband was in Chiropractic college and Medical school during those times and was hardly ever home. I had no family near by to help me and was depressed and exhausted all the time. My mom was so mentally ill after WWII that I was not raised to know how to be a mother. I did not want any more kids after the 1st one because it was a nightmare for me. I threw up all the time and had horrible migrane headaches. I had more hell with one child than some couples do with 10 kids. After a crucifixation childbirth my 1st son had horrible colic the 1st three years of his life. He cried all the time and my nerves were shot. We had no medical insurance and my parents paid to find a doctor who finally found out it was his appendix. So, it is so important not to judge one another and to mind our own business in this area accept to ask if you could use some help. We were on church welfare, govenment aid, and my parents helped to get through all this schooling. It was so hard on our family and my oldest son did a suicide attempt at 13, my daughter had a baby out of wedlock at 16, and my youngest son went through hell discovering he was gay. I had to handle all this while working a part time job teaching beauty school. You bet I used birth control and my husband had a vasectomy after the 3rd child. God gave me great peace about this and told me I had suffered enough.Amen Bridget! I’m not disputing what has been said by these church leaders. Church policy was definitely anti-birth control back in the day. What was JFS beefing about anyway? The rhythm method? The Titanic hadn’t even set sail when he became president of the church. There were no automatic washing machines. Cars were a rare luxury. To those who say we can’t take silence on the topic as a sea change, I respectfully disagree. The CHI no longer states that birth control is prohibited. The stance has softened. In a church governed by geriatric leaders, change comes slowly. Frankly, most of these guys haven’t required birth control for a few decades. Also, the church’s stance is never going to be to discourage having children because the focus on families is central. Why do people insist on looking to others to make every decision in life for them? So we have someone to blame when it goes badly? I wish those who wanted the church to tell them how to live their lives in such great detail would quit asking these kinds of questions so the church would quit answering these types of questions. But that’s just me.
Thank you, Popppyseed. I can get pretty intense about some things! Just like in the parable of the talents, it’s what we do with what we have that counts. I believe that quality verses quantity is what God is concernced about since Abraham had only one son from Sariah (Isacc). Hawkgirl…I also liked what you said…Personal responsiblity and using our brains and not having to be told in all things just makes sense. What I wonder is how people with large families make it? Maybe that’s another thread.
bridget_night wrote:I believe that quality verses quantity is what God is concernced about since Abraham had only one son from Sariah (Isacc).
I agree Bridget. I love kids (especially mine). I have met some friends at work that don’t want any kids and it makes me think that people are just different. Some like big families, some don’t. I don’t think it is right for religion to dictate which makes you a better person…it is only one aspect of the earthly experience and everyone can’t be brushed with a broad stroke of requiring lots of kids. I like that the church is family friendly and stresses how important family is, but families should be looked at as coming in all shapes and sizes. The Church should not get into dictating this to couples any more than they should get involved in politics…that’s not their “thang”.
So this discussion leads us to thinking not just about the pre-existence and spirits needing to come to earth, but the post-existence and families successfully sealed together. How do families work in heaven? Marriages are still intact. And then my kids are sealed to us, and then they get married and their spouses are with us…and we are also with our parents, and we are also with my wife’s parents…hmmm.
Clearly, whether I have 1 kid, 2 kids or 12 kids…it is still going to be a huge group!!
hawkgrrrl wrote:I wish those who wanted the church to tell them how to live their lives in such great detail would quit asking these kinds of questions so the church would quit answering these types of questions. But that’s just me.
Amen, hawk!!!
I think this is the exact dynamic that creates the “eternal cycle” of members-leaders-culture-leaders-members.
My dad was/is a good example. He literally has an answer for everything that he can reference from some church teaching past/present. Especially, the CHI.
Thank you for all of the info! Tradition, overall culture .. Quotes, talks .. Whatever it may be, there is still some type of presence around when it comes to feeling like you should have many children (which makes sense, imo if preached in the right/healthy way-which is an extremely fine line!). Perfect example, DH wants 8 ( 😮 ) .. simply b/c he sees large families in Church and they “Look” happy. Real Deal – Scares me a little! We hardly just had one (whom he is just getting to know after 10 months of being in Iraq) and things are very different and challenging! However, he knows and I know it is NO ONES business but our own. It is just so crazy sometimes that commandments for example Multiply and Replenish the Earth or scripture used to fight against birth control .. Turn into well .. I won’t retype all of the quotes! – Heavy guilt, fear and judgment unto ourselves as well as everyone around us. I’m happy leaders aren’t dwelling on it as much these Latter Days ( sorry couldn’t resist) but nevertheless the “Tradition/Culture” or w/e you want to call it still lingers .. As long as mentally healthy adults want and choose to have many children or one child or none .. while all along making healthy and smart decisions (as in can I support them, can I love them) and doing it for right healthy reasons (as in my partner and I want a big family, we can support them, we can love them) .. Not so much for I want to fit in, or so and so said I should or God will damn me if I don’t. It is so personal, it really is pathetic being negatively judged based on your “Lack” of children, or even “Too many” children – Which thankfully I have not experienced.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
Why do people insist on looking to others to make every decision in life for them? So we have someone to blame when it goes badly? I wish those who wanted the church to tell them how to live their lives in such great detail would quit asking these kinds of questions so the church would quit answering these types of questions. But that’s just me.Amen. Perhaps I have a little too much pride at times b/c I honestly don’t care to ask or get advice from “leaders” whatsoever at this time.(Although I must admit that there are many many “Answers” I do enjoy pondering and leaning towards in my search for truth/good in The Church) I talk with DH now and let him know I’m not afraid nor do I feel guilty about coming to my own conclusion about certain “Principles” (even when they do not go along with Church teachings) .. I like this new feeling of responsibility-just need to continue to work on the balance of all these new and exciting emotions. Thank you again for all the insight everyone!
My brother and his wife started out marriage and family with lofty plans and ideologies. I think they wanted 12 kids. Then reality set in. They are now completely happy with four and roll their eyes at their previous position. I however wanted 1, maybe 2. But as reality would have it, I have 4 and surprise surprise, I find more happiness in a bigger family than I had thought I would. If you can believe it, I have even want 1 or 2 more (not that I will). Maybe life just mellows us all out! 
Youth tends to extremes. I like the current stance – which I sum up as, “Have however many you can handle – whether that’s one or fifteen. Just don’t limit yourself for purely selfish reasons.”
Since this thread addresses the pre-existence, here’s a link that some might appreciate …. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6y-WTFGPK4&feature=related There are actually 4 or 5 ten-minute videos that you have to watch to get the whole thing but it’s Terryl Givens in 2007.
Good stuff IMHO.
Old Timer wrote:
I like the current stance – which I sum up as, “Have how ever many you can handle – whether that’s one or fifteen. Just don’t limit yourself for purely selfish reasons.”
I agree with this. I am the oldest of 9. Both of my parents were only children, so our large family was overwhelming regularly. I wound up being a quasi-parent at around 15 or so to help out. I always figured on around 6… but waited to marry until I was 26. 2 years in, and we felt nudged to start our family… the cards played out that I went to work and my husband stayed at home with our daughter. 2-3 years past that, and I didn’t feel we were done. When our daughter was 4, my husband started to realize we might not be done. Now we have a 1 year old baby, and my husband is quite sure we are done. I came closer to death than anyone would like delivering our last baby, so I understand his position. I am pretty ambivalent about being done.
For me, I see children in the same light as the parable of the talents. 1 of the men was given stewardship over 10, another only 5. I do not hear in the scripture any censure for those stewards who worked so hard to handle their responsibility. We hear a stern rebuke for the man with 1 talent who did nothing with it. Some of our families might be big with lots of kids and that might be their pathway. Other families are going to be smaller. I prefer to think that God will judge on what I did with my relationships within my family rather than the number of kids I had.
HiJolly wrote:
LaLaLove wrote:Hello all. I have a few questions about the pre-existence.
First this has come about b/c DH and I have realized that many friends/family have asked us if we believe “Having more children = Higher degree of Heaven”.
I would like to know if anyone has insight into how this “Rumor” or “Theory” has gotten into peoples minds over the years. Was it a theory implied by a leader? Or have non-members and members alike put “Mormons have big families” and “Mormons believe in levels of Heaven” together to eventually come up with “Having more children = Higher degree of Heaven.”
:Yes, the theory is implied by Joseph Smith’s teachings concerning Polygamy, Polyandry, temple work for the dead, patriarchy and doctrine of adoption.
I think Joseph was trying to make the adage “As above, so below” literal by tying together familial, patriarchal relationships through priesthood sealings, in an effort to duplicate what he saw in Heaven. He explained that the networks of sealed people into linked families increased our power and dominion, etc. in heaven, much like the European royalty did it in the middle ages.
Obviously, if that were worth pursuit, what would make more sense than having a lot of kids with your own wife/wives in the first place? Why adopt if you can have a bajillion kids yourself? So, I think it’s all tied together. Saturday’s Warrior is simply a sociological outgrowth of this kind of thinking, IMO.
This is where my study has brought me. Why do we no longer understand polygamy? Because we no longer teach that our personal exaltation is linked to the size of the personal familial kingdom we build. It was only about a century ago that men stopped adding wives to their families in an effort to secure the blessings of eternal life.
But the idea of large family size = righteousness has persisted in our doctrine and in the stereotypically large Mormon families.
I also believe that it continues in the church policy towards Vasectomy
Quote:Surgical Sterilization (Including Vasectomy)
The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2) birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer.
Sounds like the church takes a very dim view on vasectomy as a method to limit family size. This was brought to my attention by an SP on a single’s ward retreat. He said that any man that would so permanently limit his increase in this life would find himself without increase in the hereafter. Sounds pretty extreme, I know but if you read the policy it says that there are only ever 2 situations were the procedure should even be considered.
Roy, it seems that quote is aimed at both vasectomies and hysterectomies, most likely including tubal ligation as well since it cites Surgical Sterilization (including vasectomies). Growing up, I never thought of nor heard of any couples in the ward consulting the bishop regarding surgical sterilization. Sometimes I heard people discounting the procedures altogether because they saw it as foiling God’s plans. Listen, if you’re having sex at all, can’t God just make those sperm and eggs jump when they need to? Why limit it to the woman’s menstrual cycle? If that baby needs to come, isn’t it in God’s power to override biology? If surgical sterilization is down the line on your path, and theoretically God would know about it, wouldn’t he be sure to get all the right eggs and sperms together? Where do God’s power and our agency meet in this scenario? This is part of where the CHI loses me on this issue. If me and my husband both acknowledged that we were done making babies, then it would definitely be on the table for one (most likely him) or both of us to become surgically sterilized, and it would not even be a thought to make sure our bishop was on board as well. Also, I think most people who are in this discussion are fertile people/couples. What about infertile couples that choose not to adopt, use surrogacy, or foster? Are they not selfish, especially if they had such a strong desire to be parents before they found out of their infertility? I think there are many ways to be selfish and selfless regarding parenthood, and some of those include being a parent. However, because single people are both without a marriage and without kids, we are often touted as the most selfish.
Thought experiment: If I believe that I am not emotionally capable to raise children despite relative life success, and therefore choose not to have kids, am I being selfish or selfless?
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